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canuck600

Documenting the last days of Greyhound Canada in Western Canada

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15 minutes ago, canuck600 said:

Some might even be sent south to the states.

That won't be possible, as all intercity coaches in the US have been required to be wheelchair accessible as of November 2012. That's why the Canadian operation got that huge amount of newly refurbished 102-DL3 coaches - they didn't have wheelchair lifts.

Most of the 06xx X3-45 coaches from the oil sands have already ended up in Toronto. They will either be transferred east, or be sold to new buyers in Western Canada. They're new coaches and should find new life easily. Those D4505 coaches are 12 years old, high mileage and haven't received a refurbishment - I don't know how many of them find new homes outside of scrapyards.

As @Uwe mentioned head office has probably already earmarked which coaches are gonna head to Ontario. For example, @A. Wong's pictures show 1179 and 1180 operating on runs in Edmonton - these coaches were regulars on the Toronto-Winnipeg corridor just a few months ago, so they've clearly been transferred further west and probably won't stick around.

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Currently the best shape ones are getting a bunch of work done to be sent out East ie: Rebuilt trannys and other things. Currently 6259, 1164, and 1130 are retired sitting in Vancouver. D4505s will be sent East I'm pretty sure too.

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4 hours ago, Articulated said:

That won't be possible, as all intercity coaches in the US have been required to be wheelchair accessible as of November 2012. That's why the Canadian operation got that huge amount of newly refurbished 102-DL3 coaches - they didn't have wheelchair lifts.

Most of the 06xx X3-45 coaches from the oil sands have already ended up in Toronto. They will either be transferred east, or be sold to new buyers in Western Canada. They're new coaches and should find new life easily. Those D4505 coaches are 12 years old, high mileage and haven't received a refurbishment - I don't know how many of them find new homes outside of scrapyards.

As @Uwe mentioned head office has probably already earmarked which coaches are gonna head to Ontario. For example, @A. Wong's pictures show 1179 and 1180 operating on runs in Edmonton - these coaches were regulars on the Toronto-Winnipeg corridor just a few months ago, so they've clearly been transferred further west and probably won't stick around.

Some of the Canadian fleet has lifts... they have to for the cross border services so any of those lift equipped coaches (D4505/X3-45/102DL3) are fair game and non-lift ones can be retrofitted at a fraction of the cost of a new coach... so you’ve got less of a point than you think... if they need a bus or 10 cheap they’ll make it happen...

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6 hours ago, Benton Harper said:

say Roeco, would you have any information as to how their current package operations are going, has there been a decrease?

well from our end yeah has been a slight decrease...but where I am we are working with another company Cold Shot Bus and Courier out of Edmonton to assume Parcel Express  operations in 85% of Alberta and the BC peace country(and expect to grow beyond that in the future)...so as word gets out that their will be an alternative once Greyhound is closed...we are not seeing as much of a decresase as in other places I'm sure such as outside Ab. 

4 hours ago, translink fan said:

Currently the best shape ones are getting a bunch of work done to be sent out East ie: Rebuilt trannys and other things. Currently 6259, 1164, and 1130 are retired sitting in Vancouver. D4505s will be sent East I'm pretty sure too.

The 4505 in best shape I would venture to guess is 1265 and it will def go east if it hasn't already,it had a rebuild and minor refurb just a few years ago. I would assume Greyhound may try and sell some coaches as they wont all get transferred east. And other assets may be sold to other co too.

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1 hour ago, roeco said:

well from our end yeah has been a slight decrease...but where I am we are working with another company Cold Shot Bus and Courier out of Edmonton to assume Parcel Express  operations in 85% of Alberta and the BC peace country(and expect to grow beyond that in the future)...so as word gets out that their will be an alternative once Greyhound is closed...we are not seeing as much of a decresase as in other places I'm sure such as outside Ab. 

The 4505 in best shape I would venture to guess is 1265 and it will def go east if it hasn't already,it had a rebuild and minor refurb just a few years ago. I would assume Greyhound may try and sell some coaches as they wont all get transferred east. And other assets may be sold to other co too.

They sold those retired ones that were sitting down the lot where PCL parks their buses on Kent Ave in Vancouver. Agreed that 1265 will probably head East with all the money they dumped into it.

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16 hours ago, canuck600 said:

The lift rules don't apply for charter use though?

Correct. But Greyhound does minimal charter work in the US ... one city where they do quite a bit is Chicago (for whatever reason...) and they already have a fleet of non-lift coaches for that work. 

12 hours ago, ns8401 said:

Some of the Canadian fleet has lifts... they have to for the cross border services so any of those lift equipped coaches (D4505/X3-45/102DL3) are fair game and non-lift ones can be retrofitted at a fraction of the cost of a new coach... so you’ve got less of a point than you think... if they need a bus or 10 cheap they’ll make it happen...

Last I looked, MCI was charging something like $80,000 to retrofit a lift into an E or J. Don't know what they'd charge for a D, but it would be similar. This retrofit done by MCI would bring it to OEM standards. I know some of the DL3s had lifts added by ABC as part of the refurb, but I can't believe that the cost per unit would be substantially less than what MCI is charging, especially if we're talking about less than 50 buses as opposed to the hundreds they did before.

So yes, $80,000 is a fraction of the $800,000 or so a brand new coach with a lift would cost. But the capital investment analysis may show that the better choice is to retire the old, near end of life bus, in favor of purchasing a new one at the current market rate.

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2 hours ago, northwesterner said:

Correct. But Greyhound does minimal charter work in the US ... one city where they do quite a bit is Chicago (for whatever reason...) and they already have a fleet of non-lift coaches for that work. 

Last I looked, MCI was charging something like $80,000 to retrofit a lift into an E or J. Don't know what they'd charge for a D, but it would be similar. This retrofit done by MCI would bring it to OEM standards. I know some of the DL3s had lifts added by ABC as part of the refurb, but I can't believe that the cost per unit would be substantially less than what MCI is charging, especially if we're talking about less than 50 buses as opposed to the hundreds they did before.

So yes, $80,000 is a fraction of the $800,000 or so a brand new coach with a lift would cost. But the capital investment analysis may show that the better choice is to retire the old, near end of life bus, in favor of purchasing a new one at the current market rate.

Do we know exactly what they are gonna rebuild in Texas? If there are any 102DL3’s (don’t put it past them) involved then it’s a distinct possibility...

I can’t believe it’ll be just X3-45’s and D4505’s getting remanufactured down there... I thought the G4500’s were not cost effective to rebuild too... it’ll be interesting to see... my guess is that the refurbed DL3’s with lifts in international service or those 06xx Prevosts would be most likely...  the D4505’s sound like they are mostly junk from comments here...

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11 hours ago, ns8401 said:

Do we know exactly what they are gonna rebuild in Texas? If there are any 102DL3’s (don’t put it past them) involved then it’s a distinct possibility...

I can’t believe it’ll be just X3-45’s and D4505’s getting remanufactured down there... I thought the G4500’s were not cost effective to rebuild too... it’ll be interesting to see... my guess is that the refurbed DL3’s with lifts in international service or those 06xx Prevosts would be most likely...  the D4505’s sound like they are mostly junk from comments here...

D4505's were actually pretty decent buses. Although I prefer to work on Prevosts, the white 06xx buses were just absolute junk. Crude dirt everywhere you can imagine. Corroded electrical connections that plagued the bus with codes, and more. The Prevost were in the shop more than the MCI's to a point.

20180326_160508.thumb.jpg.30e9b2cd753f5011d5a3cddf7ef099a0.jpg

This was when I pulled the first of the 6 white Prevosts for Vancouver into the wash pad #639. I spent a good chunk of time rinsing as much as I could out before I could work on it. 

But then the refurbed 102's had their own issues. Going through brake drums and pads faster due to Greyhound switching to a cheaper drum that the pads outlasted. Lucky to get 6 months maybe out of them. And being Ex American buses, they didn't come with full jake heads unlike the Canadian buses with 3 jake heads and not 2 like the stateside ones did. (constant comments from drivers on the Post trip saying Jake doesn't work). Hundred of obsolete parts on them. The buses were old but upper management kept giving the shop a hard time on why so many buses were out of service.....

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On 10/14/2018 at 11:59 PM, translink fan said:

Although I prefer to work on Prevosts, the white 06xx buses were just absolute junk. Crude dirt everywhere you can imagine. Corroded electrical connections that plagued the bus with codes, and more.

You’re welcome 🤣

The mud patch we drove them in was something they weren’t designed for. The limestone roads were the worse, once that stuff dries on the bus it’s like concrete. 

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Retrieved October 16, 2018:

Units active with a stop in Abbotsford, BC: "1272", "6166", "1143", "1130", "1274", "1137", "1265", "1168", "6146"

Units active with a stop in Vancouver, BC: "1272", "1143", "1130", "6166", "1274", "6108", "1168", "1265", "6146"

Units active with a stop in Edmonton, AB: "6321", "6072", "1322", "6021", "6184", "6332", "1179", "6272", "6240"

Units active with a stop in Calgary, AB: "1141", "1164", "6038", "1140", "6138", "6151", "1141", "6021", "6093", "1141", "6146", "6272", "1161", "6137", "6054", "6184", "6021", "1137"

Units active with a stop in Regina, SK:  "6138", "1284", "1141", "6000", "6054" 

Units active with a stop in Brandon, MB: "1272", "6166", "1143", "1130", "1274", "1137", "1265", "1168", "6146"

 

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I was chattin with an Ed based driver he said their were several drivers that were asked to Drive coaches across Canada that they are keeping for service their. I would think all the Prevosts (ex First Canada) will head East as well as the 4505's, the lift coaches will probabably make their way to the USA. They will take trailers with them full of spare parts,etc. for the Eastern and U.S. operations. 

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Question?

Does anyone have what routes Greyhound runs in Ontario,Quebec & into the states from Ontario & Quebec?

 

I know of Ottawa-Toronto & Ottawa-Montreal, but what are the others?

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Greyhound Canada runs Toronto Chicago crossing the Detroit/Windsor Tunnel, and Toronto New York crossing at the Peace Bridge (Trentway Wagar/Megabus also runs the same route). These are USA/Canada interline services with a US driver for the local sections in the US. New York services also interline with NY Trailways (I think this is a legacy of Grey Coach) though I don't think Trailways buses run into Canada anymore. Canadian buses used to run all the way to New York and Chicago but likewise I don't think this is done anymore. 

There's also very limted service from Ottawa to Syracuse at the 1000 Islands Bridge (this is a stub of a much more extensive service in the past).

Quebec is Montreal-New York and Montreal-Boston, these are Greyhound USA services and AFAIK don't carry local passengers in Canada. 

The Ottawa\Toronto\Montreal routes used to be owned by Voyageur (they were forced to sell the Toronto Montreal route to Trentway-Wagar as a result of the merger).

The other primary Greyhound corridors in Ontario are Toronto to Niagara (crossing into the US, mentioned above), Toronto-London-Windsor-Detroit (also above), as well as Toronto to Kitchener/Waterloo, Guelph and Cambridge (inherited from Grey Coach I believe). These are probably the busiest routes in the system and run approximately hourly.

There are also few ex-PMCL services left to Barrie and Owen Sound but these have been scaled back drastically, and the once daily transcontinental service which will soon be truncated.

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2 hours ago, IRT_BMT_IND said:

Greyhound Canada runs Toronto Chicago crossing the Detroit/Windsor Tunnel, and Toronto New York crossing at the Peace Bridge (Trentway Wagar/Megabus also runs the same route). These are USA/Canada interline services with a US driver for the local sections in the US. New York services also interline with NY Trailways (I think this is a legacy of Grey Coach) though I don't think Trailways buses run into Canada anymore. Canadian buses used to run all the way to New York and Chicago but likewise I don't think this is done anymore. 

There's also very limted service from Ottawa to Syracuse at the 1000 Islands Bridge (this is a stub of a much more extensive service in the past).

Quebec is Montreal-New York and Montreal-Boston, these are Greyhound USA services and AFAIK don't carry local passengers in Canada. 

The Ottawa\Toronto\Montreal routes used to be owned by Voyageur (they were forced to sell the Toronto Montreal route to Trentway-Wagar as a result of the merger).

The other primary Greyhound corridors in Ontario are Toronto to Niagara (crossing into the US, mentioned above), Toronto-London-Windsor-Detroit (also above), as well as Toronto to Kitchener/Waterloo, Guelph and Cambridge (inherited from Grey Coach I believe). These are probably the busiest routes in the system and run approximately hourly.

There are also few ex-PMCL services left to Barrie and Owen Sound but these have been scaled back drastically, and the once daily transcontinental service which will soon be truncated.

They cross into Windsor over the ambassador bridge... they have the tunnel limited to 10’ 6” these days... The Detroit Toronto Service results in a change of bus in Detroit with a Canadian Driver and bus going into Canada and a U.S Driver and bus going to Chicago. Interestingly the schedules show as one schedule all the way and don’t reflect a change in Detroit.

That said if for example Schedule 5530 is due in Detroit from Chicago at 130pm but isn’t expected until 225 then the Canadian half will simply leave on time with only a few people at 155pm headed to Windsor, any stranded passengers get put on the next schedule. From New York U.S. buses run all the way through to Toronto. I did see a U.S bus do the Detroit run a couple weeks ago but 6xxx DL3’s and 06xx Prevosts are the norm on the Canadian side because of the lift requirements...

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VCL wasn't forced to sell the Montreal-Kingston-Toronto route.

CSL was divesting their bus interests in the late 80s.  First went Voyageur Inc in Quebec, then VCL was broken up.  First in 1993 to GCL for Ottawa-North Bay, Ottawa-Peterborough-Toronto (including express), Peterborough-Toronto, Toronto-Belleville, then in 1996 was Toronto-Kingston-Montreal, including a limited Kingston-Ottawa which essentially served for the Queen's Tricolour Express, to TWW.

Finally, in 1998, under Laidlaw ownership, they purchased the remaining VCL routes and assets.

Uwe

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Toronto-London-Detroit uses Greyhound Canada equipment and drivers all the way to Detroit, where as @ns8401 said US-based equipment (mostly the Michigan-owned buses) operate the rest of the way to Chicago. Occasionally US equipment shows up east of Detroit, but that's mostly when a Greyhound Canada bus needs some emergency repairs.

For Toronto-Buffalo-New York, Greyhound Lines equipment is used for the majority of trips. Similar to the setup with VIA and Amtrak's Maple Leaf train, Greyhound Canada drivers usually operate between Toronto and Buffalo (drivers have to put papers in the driver's window stating it is being operated by Greyhound Canada, with the appropriate legals). Sometimes Greyhound Canada equipment is used, and those buses usually get changed off in Buffalo and turned back to Toronto on another schedule. The Buffalo Airport-Scarborough Town Centre schedules predominately operate Canadian equipment, although the bus starts in Buffalo, heads to Scarborough Town Centre, and turns back to Buffalo.

Montreal-New York also operates with US equipment. I think it may be Greyhound Lines drivers the entire way, similar to how Vancouver-Seattle operates.

Accessible equipment is required to be operated on all trips heading into and out of the US, so the Toronto-London-Detroit corridor almost always gets Prevost coaches (mixed with the handful of D4500/D4505 coaches equipped with lifts). Occasionally a 6xxx without a lift get assigned to a run continuing west of London, although if coming from Toronto these usually get changed off in London, but sometimes they slip through.

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4 hours ago, IRT_BMT_IND said:

Greyhound Canada runs Toronto Chicago crossing the Detroit/Windsor Tunnel, and Toronto New York crossing at the Peace Bridge (Trentway Wagar/Megabus also runs the same route). These are USA/Canada interline services with a US driver for the local sections in the US. New York services also interline with NY Trailways (I think this is a legacy of Grey Coach) though I don't think Trailways buses run into Canada anymore. Canadian buses used to run all the way to New York and Chicago but likewise I don't think this is done anymore. 

There's also very limted service from Ottawa to Syracuse at the 1000 Islands Bridge (this is a stub of a much more extensive service in the past).

Quebec is Montreal-New York and Montreal-Boston, these are Greyhound USA services and AFAIK don't carry local passengers in Canada. 

The Ottawa\Toronto\Montreal routes used to be owned by Voyageur (they were forced to sell the Toronto Montreal route to Trentway-Wagar as a result of the merger).

The other primary Greyhound corridors in Ontario are Toronto to Niagara (crossing into the US, mentioned above), Toronto-London-Windsor-Detroit (also above), as well as Toronto to Kitchener/Waterloo, Guelph and Cambridge (inherited from Grey Coach I believe). These are probably the busiest routes in the system and run approximately hourly.

There are also few ex-PMCL services left to Barrie and Owen Sound but these have been scaled back drastically, and the once daily transcontinental service which will soon be truncated.

This is a very good summary of what is currently operating....the only change is that after about a two year break,  Trailways NY equipment is running thru to Toronto again on some trips.   

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2 hours ago, Articulated said:

Toronto-London-Detroit uses Greyhound Canada equipment and drivers all the way to Detroit, where as @ns8401 said US-based equipment (mostly the Michigan-owned buses) operate the rest of the way to Chicago. Occasionally US equipment shows up east of Detroit, but that's mostly when a Greyhound Canada bus needs some emergency repairs.

For Toronto-Buffalo-New York, Greyhound Lines equipment is used for the majority of trips. Similar to the setup with VIA and Amtrak's Maple Leaf train, Greyhound Canada drivers usually operate between Toronto and Buffalo (drivers have to put papers in the driver's window stating it is being operated by Greyhound Canada, with the appropriate legals). Sometimes Greyhound Canada equipment is used, and those buses usually get changed off in Buffalo and turned back to Toronto on another schedule. The Buffalo Airport-Scarborough Town Centre schedules predominately operate Canadian equipment, although the bus starts in Buffalo, heads to Scarborough Town Centre, and turns back to Buffalo.

Montreal-New York also operates with US equipment. I think it may be Greyhound Lines drivers the entire way, similar to how Vancouver-Seattle operates.

Accessible equipment is required to be operated on all trips heading into and out of the US, so the Toronto-London-Detroit corridor almost always gets Prevost coaches (mixed with the handful of D4500/D4505 coaches equipped with lifts). Occasionally a 6xxx without a lift get assigned to a run continuing west of London, although if coming from Toronto these usually get changed off in London, but sometimes they slip through.

We get the 102DL3 refurbs with lifts (Canada must have received a few as often as they show up) once or twice a day coming out of Canada down here to Detroit actually. For the longest time the 88xx Prevosts were the norm but they vanished about 5 months ago... no idea where they went. Basically the 6xx Prevosts work the first two runs and the 6xxx refurbs work the other two... I know 6363 (I remember that one thanks to it’s being the feature bus on the ABC refurb story the ABA did) is one of the frequent visitors... I should keep track. Right now for example 0649 went East a bit ago and 6006 is coming west and will make it to Detroit tonight. 1301, 1302, 1328 and 1329 are all occasional visitors... I regularly see 0649-0654 rotating through as well. 

 

Do 6006 or 6363 have a lift, I think they have the blue accessible sticker on the front corner...

edit: Ask and I shall receive apparently... 6363 is the next westbound coach out of Toronto... it should make it all the way through just like 6006 did...

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7 hours ago, ns8401 said:

We get the 102DL3 refurbs with lifts (Canada must have received a few as often as they show up) once or twice a day coming out of Canada down here to Detroit actually. For the longest time the 88xx Prevosts were the norm but they vanished about 5 months ago... no idea where they went. Basically the 6xx Prevosts work the first two runs and the 6xxx refurbs work the other two... I know 6363 (I remember that one thanks to it’s being the feature bus on the ABC refurb story the ABA did) is one of the frequent visitors... I should keep track. Right now for example 0649 went East a bit ago and 6006 is coming west and will make it to Detroit tonight. 1301, 1302, 1328 and 1329 are all occasional visitors... I regularly see 0649-0654 rotating through as well. 

 

Do 6006 or 6363 have a lift, I think they have the blue accessible sticker on the front corner...

edit: Ask and I shall receive apparently... 6363 is the next westbound coach out of Toronto... it should make it all the way through just like 6006 did...

I have photographed both buses... 6006 I caught two weekends ago, it's definitely not accessible. 6363 also does not have a wheelchair lift. Because the US side was in such a scramble for accessible equipment when the 2012 deadline hit, they would definitely not have sent any coaches with wheelchair lifts up to Canada.

Occasionally they swap coaches in London, dunno if they did for 6006 and 6363. The Canadian side sometimes doesn't care about meeting the US accessibility requirements, especially since the coach will only be making one stop and returning across the border quickly. (The cynic in me is saying maybe they put the non-accessible coaches on the runs stopping in Detroit during the evening/overnight so they won't be discovered... 6006's run stopped in Detroit around midnight, and returned to Toronto around 6:30am.)

I was thinking recently too that I haven't seen the 88xx coaches often, as you said they seem to have disappeared after the 06xx were acquired. However just as I type this, 8876 is tracking on schedule 5509 leaving Toronto now.

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Majority of the 6xx Prevost from Vancouver have been driven east. Not sure how far they have been so far but only 2 remain here.

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19 minutes ago, translink fan said:

Majority of the 6xx Prevost from Vancouver have been driven east. Not sure how far they have been so far but only 2 remain here.

Anyone know What year those were built? Also what is the hump on the right side of the roof in the back for? They look a little odd but they also can’t be that terribly old...

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3 minutes ago, ns8401 said:

Anyone know What year those were built? Also what is the hump on the right side of the roof in the back for? They look a little odd but they also can’t be that terribly old...

2012's. What bump are you referring to? Only thing on top is the roof mounted exhaust.

40274028474_257404cdc2_c.jpgGreyhound Canada Prevost X3-45 #639-1 by Dannny29, on Flickr

26175653677_c1478f964c_c.jpgGreyhound Prevost X3-45 #635-1 by Dannny29, on Flickr

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The ones that came from the oil patch have an air duct on the curb side roof, running down the rear half of the coach.

Im reasonably certain it’s an engine air intake snorkel. Helps exclude dust from dirt roads up there.

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@translink fan: The 06xx X3-45 coaches are not all from the order, or even built in the same year. 611's VIN indicates it was built in 2010, while 643-654 are from 2014.

As @Bus_Medic stated, the box on the roof is most likely related to the air intake for the engine, due to a lot of running on dirt/gravel roads up in the oilfields. I haven't gotten a good rear doorside picture to really show it off, but you can clearly see the box on the right side of 0646, and you can faintly see the air intake holes on the top of 654 in the following pictures.

45250636282_9af821759c_n.jpg43089684955_b573456e59_n.jpg

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