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Chris.A

Cancelled TTC bus orders

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Not exactly cancelled, but the 8100-8219 batch was supposed to be hybrids, but later got changed to diesel after TTC's dissatisfaction with hybrids.

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The ‘96 Orion V diesel and cng orders were supposed to be slightly larger than what was delivered. Same with the VI cng order as well. 

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There's only one actual order that I know of that was cancelled - one made in 1995 for 135 high-floor buses.

 

It ended up arriving as the 7000-series Orion Vs, but the original tender was won by Nova for 135 Classics. That award had to be cancelled after the governments of Ontario and Québec could not agree to the relief of duties to be paid on the buses (yes, there were inter-provincial duties on transit buses at that time).

 

31 minutes ago, bus_7246 said:

The ‘96 Orion V diesel and cng orders were supposed to be slightly larger than what was delivered. Same with the VI cng order as well. 

That's not quite how that happened.

 

The original order - which the TTC was forced into by the Provincial Government of the time - was for 100 Orion VIs.

 

The problem was that the development of the Orion VI, which you might remember was a brand-new vehicle at the time, took longer than anyone expected. The original arrival of them was 1995, then 1996, and so on.

 

The TTC needed vehicles badly at that time, as they hadn't purchased any new ones since 1992. So, they agreed to change half of the order to Orion Vs, which were already in production at that time. The catch was that Orion had already ordered all of the CNG bits, and so the TTC was forced to have these so configured.

 

Dan

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Didn't they reduce the '99 order of D40LF's?

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1 minute ago, 7575 said:

Didn't they reduce the '99 order of D40LF's?

It was the RTS order that was reduced. The TTC took half of what they originally intended to purchase and made up the rest with the D40LF.

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1 hour ago, ADB said:

It was the RTS order that was reduced. The TTC took half of what they originally intended to purchase and made up the rest with the D40LF.

Oh yea I thought it was the other way around. Thanks for the clarification.

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8 hours ago, smallspy said:

There's only one actual order that I know of that was cancelled - one made in 1995 for 135 high-floor buses.

 

It ended up arriving as the 7000-series Orion Vs, but the original tender was won by Nova for 135 Classics. That award had to be cancelled after the governments of Ontario and Québec could not agree to the relief of duties to be paid on the buses (yes, there were inter-provincial duties on transit buses at that time).

If TTC was able to get the classics then, Would they look like the NFTA ones had or the rear window one

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8 hours ago, TTC T6H-5307N 2252 said:

If TTC was able to get the classics then, Would they look like the NFTA ones had or the rear window one

Think Pittsburgh port authority.

DB5549B1-210D-40CF-9F36-9DE892C7CC77.thumb.jpeg.b896830f8f677081fdc67ed723bdd878.jpeg

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On 10/9/2018 at 1:15 PM, smallspy said:

There's only one actual order that I know of that was cancelled - one made in 1995 for 135 high-floor buses.

 

It ended up arriving as the 7000-series Orion Vs, but the original tender was won by Nova for 135 Classics. That award had to be cancelled after the governments of Ontario and Québec could not agree to the relief of duties to be paid on the buses (yes, there were inter-provincial duties on transit buses at that time).

 

That's not quite how that happened.

 

The original order - which the TTC was forced into by the Provincial Government of the time - was for 100 Orion VIs.

 

The problem was that the development of the Orion VI, which you might remember was a brand-new vehicle at the time, took longer than anyone expected. The original arrival of them was 1995, then 1996, and so on.

 

The TTC needed vehicles badly at that time, as they hadn't purchased any new ones since 1992. So, they agreed to change half of the order to Orion Vs, which were already in production at that time. The catch was that Orion had already ordered all of the CNG bits, and so the TTC was forced to have these so configured.

 

Dan

If it holds true, the 135 Orion Vs (#7000-#7134) were enough to replace the 90 Orion IIIs due to their deteriorating frames. 

 

On 10/10/2018 at 6:29 AM, Bus_Medic said:

Think Pittsburgh port authority.

DB5549B1-210D-40CF-9F36-9DE892C7CC77.thumb.jpeg.b896830f8f677081fdc67ed723bdd878.jpeg

As with the older members in this board, TTC planned to purchased 50 MCI Classics in 1990 but the order eventually ended up with 79 New Flyer D40s instead.

However, the orders for 2003 and 2004 were suggested to have 100 New Flyer D40is but those have carbon/stainless steel combination. Then it was also proposed for 100 D40LFs in 2003 and 120 D40is in 2004. The Commission eventually awarded Orion for 220 Orion VII low floor buses for the 2003 and 2004 orders. An additional order of 250 buses were delivered in 2005 but the 12 were delivered as bonus units due to liquidated damages as a result of late deliveries.

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The D40LF where good.  Did we get our money's worth of of the Slow boxes? I would say so, considering most of them where at over a million miles when retired early. 

 Good think we didn't get any D40I's. 

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I wonder if the TTC did get Nova Classics instead of Orion 5s, would they have lasted as long, longer, or shorter than the 7000s?

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On 10/9/2018 at 9:58 PM, TTC T6H-5307N 2252 said:

If TTC was able to get the classics then, Would they look like the NFTA ones had or the rear window one

 

They would have looked and been spec'd exactly like the Orion Vs that we received.

 

13 hours ago, BYD said:

If it holds true, the 135 Orion Vs (#7000-#7134) were enough to replace the 90 Orion IIIs due to their deteriorating frames.

 

That order was tendered explicitly because of the Orion IIIs frame issues. The problem was so grave that the TTC thought that they may all have to be pulled from service immediately. Nova responded to the tender with the lowest bid and the ability to build the buses as soon as possible. Orion was higher-priced and required a longer lead time. And yes, 90 times 1.5 equals exactly 135.


Dan

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Could we have gotten LFS instead of RTS'?  

Why was the order cut in half? But Nova didn't have an issue with tarrifs with the RTS because they where not built in Quebec? 

 

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2 hours ago, TTC T6H-5307N 2252 said:

Did TTC consider the D60(HF) and the D60LF when the IIIs were having problems 

In the late 90s/early 2000s, the TTC looked into D60LFs but they failed the shaker test which made the TTC reconsider.

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Now if the E40-88s came to existence, allocated to Landsdowne, after 1996 could be the old Eglinton Garage or maybe batteries like HSR E800Bs had, I believe this info must of came from a former Landsdowne op or a conspiracy theory 

2C6EF097-CDB9-4EF4-8C1E-7BC893B0C742.png

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On 10/27/2018 at 11:11 PM, TTC T6H-5307N 2252 said:

Now if the E40-88s came to existence, allocated to Landsdowne, after 1996 could be the old Eglinton Garage or maybe batteries like HSR E800Bs had, I believe this info must of came from a former Landsdowne op or a conspiracy theory 

2C6EF097-CDB9-4EF4-8C1E-7BC893B0C742.png

 

It's all conspiracy. There was no tender, there was no contract.

 

New Flyer was pushing hard for the TTC to buy new trolley buses, going to far as to lobby to City Hall as I recall. They made thousands and thousands of these sales sheets that gave the spec's to a prospective order, and handed them out to anyone who would take them. And when push came to shove, the City simply couldn't convince the Province - who was still holding the purse strings at this time - that the trolley bus fleet was worth keeping. (The economics of what was required for the fleet and system at the time certainly didn't help, either.)

 

That the Province had purchased Orion a couple of years before this, and that Consumers Gas (to name but one) was pushing hard for "alternate fuels" was another nail in the coffin.

 

Dan

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