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Cancelled TTC bus orders

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The ‘96 Orion V diesel and cng orders were supposed to be slightly larger than what was delivered. Same with the VI cng order as well. 

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There's only one actual order that I know of that was cancelled - one made in 1995 for 135 high-floor buses.

 

It ended up arriving as the 7000-series Orion Vs, but the original tender was won by Nova for 135 Classics. That award had to be cancelled after the governments of Ontario and Québec could not agree to the relief of duties to be paid on the buses (yes, there were inter-provincial duties on transit buses at that time).

 

31 minutes ago, bus_7246 said:

The ‘96 Orion V diesel and cng orders were supposed to be slightly larger than what was delivered. Same with the VI cng order as well. 

That's not quite how that happened.

 

The original order - which the TTC was forced into by the Provincial Government of the time - was for 100 Orion VIs.

 

The problem was that the development of the Orion VI, which you might remember was a brand-new vehicle at the time, took longer than anyone expected. The original arrival of them was 1995, then 1996, and so on.

 

The TTC needed vehicles badly at that time, as they hadn't purchased any new ones since 1992. So, they agreed to change half of the order to Orion Vs, which were already in production at that time. The catch was that Orion had already ordered all of the CNG bits, and so the TTC was forced to have these so configured.

 

Dan

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1 minute ago, 7575 said:

Didn't they reduce the '99 order of D40LF's?

It was the RTS order that was reduced. The TTC took half of what they originally intended to purchase and made up the rest with the D40LF.

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1 hour ago, ADB said:

It was the RTS order that was reduced. The TTC took half of what they originally intended to purchase and made up the rest with the D40LF.

Oh yea I thought it was the other way around. Thanks for the clarification.

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8 hours ago, smallspy said:

There's only one actual order that I know of that was cancelled - one made in 1995 for 135 high-floor buses.

 

It ended up arriving as the 7000-series Orion Vs, but the original tender was won by Nova for 135 Classics. That award had to be cancelled after the governments of Ontario and Québec could not agree to the relief of duties to be paid on the buses (yes, there were inter-provincial duties on transit buses at that time).

If TTC was able to get the classics then, Would they look like the NFTA ones had or the rear window one

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8 hours ago, TTC T6H-5307N 2252 said:

If TTC was able to get the classics then, Would they look like the NFTA ones had or the rear window one

Think Pittsburgh port authority.

DB5549B1-210D-40CF-9F36-9DE892C7CC77.thumb.jpeg.b896830f8f677081fdc67ed723bdd878.jpeg

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On 10/9/2018 at 1:15 PM, smallspy said:

There's only one actual order that I know of that was cancelled - one made in 1995 for 135 high-floor buses.

 

It ended up arriving as the 7000-series Orion Vs, but the original tender was won by Nova for 135 Classics. That award had to be cancelled after the governments of Ontario and Québec could not agree to the relief of duties to be paid on the buses (yes, there were inter-provincial duties on transit buses at that time).

 

That's not quite how that happened.

 

The original order - which the TTC was forced into by the Provincial Government of the time - was for 100 Orion VIs.

 

The problem was that the development of the Orion VI, which you might remember was a brand-new vehicle at the time, took longer than anyone expected. The original arrival of them was 1995, then 1996, and so on.

 

The TTC needed vehicles badly at that time, as they hadn't purchased any new ones since 1992. So, they agreed to change half of the order to Orion Vs, which were already in production at that time. The catch was that Orion had already ordered all of the CNG bits, and so the TTC was forced to have these so configured.

 

Dan

If it holds true, the 135 Orion Vs (#7000-#7134) were enough to replace the 90 Orion IIIs due to their deteriorating frames. 

 

On 10/10/2018 at 6:29 AM, Bus_Medic said:

Think Pittsburgh port authority.

DB5549B1-210D-40CF-9F36-9DE892C7CC77.thumb.jpeg.b896830f8f677081fdc67ed723bdd878.jpeg

As with the older members in this board, TTC planned to purchased 50 MCI Classics in 1990 but the order eventually ended up with 79 New Flyer D40s instead.

However, the orders for 2003 and 2004 were suggested to have 100 New Flyer D40is but those have carbon/stainless steel combination. Then it was also proposed for 100 D40LFs in 2003 and 120 D40is in 2004. The Commission eventually awarded Orion for 220 Orion VII low floor buses for the 2003 and 2004 orders. An additional order of 250 buses were delivered in 2005 but the 12 were delivered as bonus units due to liquidated damages as a result of late deliveries.

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The D40LF where good.  Did we get our money's worth of of the Slow boxes? I would say so, considering most of them where at over a million miles when retired early. 

 Good think we didn't get any D40I's. 

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On 10/9/2018 at 9:58 PM, TTC T6H-5307N 2252 said:

If TTC was able to get the classics then, Would they look like the NFTA ones had or the rear window one

 

They would have looked and been spec'd exactly like the Orion Vs that we received.

 

13 hours ago, BYD said:

If it holds true, the 135 Orion Vs (#7000-#7134) were enough to replace the 90 Orion IIIs due to their deteriorating frames.

 

That order was tendered explicitly because of the Orion IIIs frame issues. The problem was so grave that the TTC thought that they may all have to be pulled from service immediately. Nova responded to the tender with the lowest bid and the ability to build the buses as soon as possible. Orion was higher-priced and required a longer lead time. And yes, 90 times 1.5 equals exactly 135.


Dan

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Could we have gotten LFS instead of RTS'?  

Why was the order cut in half? But Nova didn't have an issue with tarrifs with the RTS because they where not built in Quebec? 

 

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2 hours ago, TTC T6H-5307N 2252 said:

Did TTC consider the D60(HF) and the D60LF when the IIIs were having problems 

In the late 90s/early 2000s, the TTC looked into D60LFs but they failed the shaker test which made the TTC reconsider.

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On 10/27/2018 at 11:11 PM, TTC T6H-5307N 2252 said:

Now if the E40-88s came to existence, allocated to Landsdowne, after 1996 could be the old Eglinton Garage or maybe batteries like HSR E800Bs had, I believe this info must of came from a former Landsdowne op or a conspiracy theory 

2C6EF097-CDB9-4EF4-8C1E-7BC893B0C742.png

 

It's all conspiracy. There was no tender, there was no contract.

 

New Flyer was pushing hard for the TTC to buy new trolley buses, going to far as to lobby to City Hall as I recall. They made thousands and thousands of these sales sheets that gave the spec's to a prospective order, and handed them out to anyone who would take them. And when push came to shove, the City simply couldn't convince the Province - who was still holding the purse strings at this time - that the trolley bus fleet was worth keeping. (The economics of what was required for the fleet and system at the time certainly didn't help, either.)

 

That the Province had purchased Orion a couple of years before this, and that Consumers Gas (to name but one) was pushing hard for "alternate fuels" was another nail in the coffin.

 

Dan

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On 10/14/2018 at 12:26 PM, Shaun said:

Could we have gotten LFS instead of RTS'?  

Why was the order cut in half? But Nova didn't have an issue with tarrifs with the RTS because they where not built in Quebec? 

 

 

They certainly could have gone with the LFS. As you'll see earlier in the thread, the TTC received a demonstrator unit (I actually remember riding it as it was a pretty unique bus at the time) but they obviously decided against it. As it turned out, the HSR's first gen Nova's didn't really age all too well so the TTC probably dodged a bullet on that one.

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On 12/26/2018 at 4:38 PM, TTC 7300 series said:

I don’t know if this counts but the TTC originally considered More D40Lfs but they didn’t like the frame or something so bought Orion’s instead and only 50 D40LFs

That's not true, and if you're going to come up with bullshit the least you can do is try and come up with something comprehensible.

 

The 1998 delivery of D40LFs was a peculiar situation. I can't seem to find much in terms of reports on them, and my memory is a bit hazy on it, but from what I recall David Gunn ordered single-handedly an order for 100 Nova RTSs - based primarily on his experience with the buses in New York. The Commissioners - Moscoe especially, as I recall - balked at this, and demanded accessible, low-floor buses as being modern and befitting of a "world class" city such as Toronto. Thus, the order with Nova was halved, and the remainder of it given to NFI for their D40LF.

 

As for the subsequent orders, when the bids were opened for every single order of what became Orion VIIs, a matching bid from either NFI or Nova (although I don't recall there being any tenders were all three responded with bids) was also received. And every single time, Nova and NFI lost for any number of different reasons - cost, not being able to meet the delivery schedule, the inability or unwillingness to build with stainless steel, not willing to meet the Commission's demands for warranty or the requisite parts listings.....the list is long and frankly distinguished.

 

So yes, NFI offered the D40LF (and even the Invero for the first order) on a number of occasions. And the TTC always rejected it.

 

Dan

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