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raptorjays

Lacking transit infrastructures in the west side of Toronto.

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Im writing on the separate forum because I think it is very concerning issue especially for those living in the west side of the city. 

I of course live in Etobicoke, very close to the border of Etobicoke and Mississauga. I've been living in Etobicoke since I first arrived in Canada in 2008. 

I don't know if you guys feel same as me about this issue (even if you don't live in the west side), but I think the City of Toronto and the TTC is very ignorant about some issues in the west side of the city. I know Scarborough has more population compared to Etobicoke, but they have more rapid transit stations than Etobicoke. 

Here are some major transit concerns in the west side of Toronto, especially in Etobicoke. 

1. Bus bay problem at Islington Station

This is just a minor issue, but I remember they closed the first two bus bays in around 2011. I was expecting there should be some improvements on the current bus bay or perhaps the station is getting modern style bus bays like what many TTC stations have nowadays. However, nothing's been done until now. The two bus bays are still closed and there are no signs of changes or improvements. I usually take 50 Burnhamthorpe bus to go home from the station, and I saw a bus driver being frustrated because her bus had to be delayed by 3 minutes as a result of the bus waiting in front. As a matter of fact, 50 Burnhamthorpe and 110 Islington South shares same bus bay since the closure of the first two. 

I heard there were supposed to be a new transit terminal near Kipling Station, and all the Mississauga buses will be moved to those terminals. However, that project is being delayed forever.. And some people say nothing can be done at Islington Station until that terminal comes to reality. 

I don't know if the document still exists, but I found out Islington and Warden station are the two last stations to be fully accessible. I think that older style bus bays may have costed a station. 

2. Transit crisis at Humber Bay Area..

It looks like more and more condos are being built in the area, and the population is rapidly growing at Humber Bay Area too. However, it looks like transit infrastructure isn't matching up with population growth. I wanna blame Rob Ford about that because he is the one who cancelled transit city project which included waterfront LRT line from Long Branch to Union..  I do believe that was definitely a bullet shot.. I don't understand of the logic of the Ford family because Rob and Dog Ford both are in love with subway or they wanna keep it as a sanctuary city.

Even if the transit city plan was cancelled, there should have been something to at least improve transit situation in the area, but I don't see anything right now. Even the relief line which is planned by John Tory is more focused to the East right now, and they are not talking about the west side. That bus shuttle to Mimico GO station is just a bandaid, not a permanent solution. 

Unfortunately, things are getting even worse as Dog Ford, who likes to riding horse on the subway will oppose any transit plans along the Lake Shore as a premier of this province. 

3. Eglinton and Finch West LRT

I wanna blame Rob Ford again for this... The original plan of the Eglinton LRT was from Pearson. Therefore, people in central part of Etobicoke should have had better access to upper part of the city including North part of the Yonge line. And the cancellation of transit city plan by Rob Ford (of course who is locked in his coffin) made the LRT line much shorter from Black Creek... Maybe he didn't know the fact that Etobicoke needs more transit...

If Eglinton LRT was planned from Pearson, it would not only have benefited people living in the west end, but also people living in the north side of the city. Going to Yorkdale Mall from Etobicoke by transit could have been much easier. Of course people living in or close to the downtown already has an option called "Union-Pearson Express" However, those living in the north side of the city (probably north of St. Clair) is completely out of reach. There is a GO BUS to Pearson from Finch Station, but it is always better to have numerous transit options to get into the different part of the city. 

36 Finch bus route was way too overcrowded before the subway extension to Vaughan. Now people living in the North West side of the city. However, that is still not enough to ease crowding. I think northwest Etobicoke is a place where transit infrastructures really sucks. It takes too long to get down to Islington or Kipling or go east towards Finch West or Finch. I think Finch LRT should be more prioritized since transit situation is even worse towards the northwest. 

Feel free to share your opinion about transit infrastructures in the west side of the city.

 

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If the NW part of the city stopped electing Mammolitis and Fords, maybe there would be some local political push for better transit.

Mid-Etobicoke politicians such as Campbell and the now-defeated Baker are courting all the NIMBY car-drivers and insisting that Eglinton transit be grade-separated.

In Ward 6, we have pushed Grimes enough that he expresses support for WWLRT, starting with some ROW separation for the 501. The Park Lawn GO station has been pushed from Metrolinx' "naah" to "okay, might make sense". Upgrades to Mimico and Long Branch GO stations are coming (they're among the last inaccessible stations on the entire network).

You're going to have to start locally. There's no point in griping about the entire area of Etobicoke. What are your local issues in the wards/ridings that you vote in? Start there.

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1. No kidding. It's what happens when infrastructure gets old - it starts to fall apart. Unlike Rob's and Doug's incessant claims of "subways last(ing) 100 years", the fact of the matter is that all infrastructure requires maintenance to keep it up to a good standard - or else.

 

As for the station's current state and it's future plans, do some searching online. There have been many, many, many TTC reports about what to do about Islington Station.

 

2. This problem predates Rob Ford. Hell, it predates David Miller. It is a problem that is completely of the City's doing, and that they have not done enough to resolve it isn't as much of a TTC problem as it is a City of Toronto problem. And the biggest issue is that there may not be a single, easy solution, like running an LRT there.

 

3. Again, not a Rob Ford issue. (There are all sorts of things that we can blame him for - but no need to give him additional credit where not warranted.) The ridership numbers always fell off of a cliff to the west of Keele or Weston, and thus it was always envisioned that Eglinton West was going to be done "at a later date". The City started the planning process without funding for construction, and when the Province came around asking for projects to lump into their MoveOntario 2020 (hey, remember that?), the City gave them all of the Transit City lines that they had envisioned as being in the first wave - Eglinton from Weston to Kennedy, Finch West from the Subway to Humber Collage, and Sheppard from the subway to Meadowvale.

 

Of course, 11 years later and we still don't really have much to show for it, which goes to show that this is not just an Etobicoke problem....

 

But as Ed pointed out, a lot of this rests on us and our fellow Torontonians. If we keep electing the likes of the various Fords (real and re-imagined) and Mammolitis and Denzil-Wongs, we really have no one to blame but ourselves for this mess.


Dan

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Perhaps those on the western edge of the city, need to stop electing such poor representation.

But for once, I'll avoid making any cracks about the councillors and MPPs, or the area!

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12 hours ago, smallspy said:

1. No kidding. It's what happens when infrastructure gets old - it starts to fall apart. Unlike Rob's and Doug's incessant claims of "subways last(ing) 100 years", the fact of the matter is that all infrastructure requires maintenance to keep it up to a good standard - or else.

 

As for the station's current state and it's future plans, do some searching online. There have been many, many, many TTC reports about what to do about Islington Station.

 

2. This problem predates Rob Ford. Hell, it predates David Miller. It is a problem that is completely of the City's doing, and that they have not done enough to resolve it isn't as much of a TTC problem as it is a City of Toronto problem. And the biggest issue is that there may not be a single, easy solution, like running an LRT there.

 

3. Again, not a Rob Ford issue. (There are all sorts of things that we can blame him for - but no need to give him additional credit where not warranted.) The ridership numbers always fell off of a cliff to the west of Keele or Weston, and thus it was always envisioned that Eglinton West was going to be done "at a later date". The City started the planning process without funding for construction, and when the Province came around asking for projects to lump into their MoveOntario 2020 (hey, remember that?), the City gave them all of the Transit City lines that they had envisioned as being in the first wave - Eglinton from Weston to Kennedy, Finch West from the Subway to Humber Collage, and Sheppard from the subway to Meadowvale.

 

Of course, 11 years later and we still don't really have much to show for it, which goes to show that this is not just an Etobicoke problem....

 

But as Ed pointed out, a lot of this rests on us and our fellow Torontonians. If we keep electing the likes of the various Fords (real and re-imagined) and Mammolitis and Denzil-Wongs, we really have no one to blame but ourselves for this mess.

 

Dan

 

7 hours ago, nfitz said:

Perhaps those on the western edge of the city, need to stop electing such poor representation.

 

But for once, I'll avoid making any cracks about the councillors and MPPs, or the area!

Both Rob & Doug Ford were idiot in the city council, and Giorgio Mammoliti is just an asshole. I also can't believe this province is now being ruled by one of those idiots..

If transit is the biggest need in this city, they need to come up with any solutions, not just a single greedy solution (subway subway and subway)

They can go to the hell if they are keep trying to mess up the city or the province. 

Unfortunately, everyone will keep voting for the incumbent one since all the candidates in the municipal election are not allowed to be represented by certain political parties need they need to promote themselves to beat the incumbent. 

 

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Islington and Warden would be the last two stations to be rehabilitated due to their complex bus terminals that need a complete rebuild to make them accessible. I don't see TTC throwing money at them anytime soon since they need to be ripped out. 7 more years to go...

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I always wanted to ask this but forgot... Why were Eglinton (original), Islington, Warden, Vic Park (original) and St George (this one not too problematic as it's only one bus bay) built like they are today instead of the island in the middle with bus platforms surrounding it?

Was it cost, geography, etc?

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26 minutes ago, Xtrazsteve said:

Islington and Warden would be the last two stations to be rehabilitated due to their complex bus terminals that need a complete rebuild to make them accessible. I don't see TTC throwing money at them anytime soon since they need to be ripped out. 7 more years to go...

Ya... all stations should be accessible by 2025 according to the AODA act..

I don't see that happening since current provincial government is just cutting all the public services.. With their pace, they maybe scrapping those act as well (hope they don't since that is a discrimination) 

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34 minutes ago, raptorjays said:

I don't see that happening since current provincial government is just cutting all the public services.. With their pace, they maybe scrapping those act as well (hope they don't since that is a discrimination) 

The government (particularly Ford) cant just wake up one day and decide to scrap the ADOA. He would be opening himself, and his party up for various lawsuits, severe Human Rights complaints, legal ramifications, etc.

As for transit in Etobicoke, its just an absolute mess and it all stems from a lack of options and alternative options. If something goes wrong in any given location, the next available option is either: unreliable, too far, or time consuming.

In South Etobicoke, people are forced to rely on near crush-load buses, or low frequency routes which get passengers to the subway if going northbound. If one is heading downtown, it almost feels like winning the lottery if one is not delayed on either the Bloor-Danforth line or Yonge-University line. The 501 is practically useless for traveling to the core so it's not much of an option. The GO train is only an option if one lives close to a station, if not, people are just wasting their time backtracking before ultimately heading to their destination.

Central Etobicoke obviously doesn't have many problems with transit at all, the subway line is right by their doorstep and they dont have to worry about bus connections which just add to one's commute. The only thing they have to deal with is with subway delays, which can be crippling if they result in trains crawling all the way to the core

North Etobicoke on the other hand is just a disaster plain and simply. Most east-west routes (ie: Lawrence West, Finch West, Wilson, etc.) are just crammed to capacity, unreliable, and slow. North-south routes just take far too long to get to and from the subway since they are too far out. The GO Train isnt even an option in this area.

To make things better there are no improvements on the horizon for any of these situations with the exception of the Park Lawn GO station. Asides from that, the problem will get perpetually worse as more people move in to Etobicoke and pack up roads. Congestion which practically never existed on streets like Kipling and Islington, get worse each and every day, while buses are getting increasingly packed to capacity. Welcome to Etobicoke where the status quo for transit infrastructure is king.

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In central Etobicoke, barely anyone would take east west routes (32/52) across the city. It's much faster to just take north south routes to line 2 instead. It doesn't matter if they are reliable and not packed.

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10 hours ago, raptorjays said:

If transit is the biggest need in this city, they need to come up with any solutions, not just a single greedy solution (subway subway and subway)

But it's not necessarily the biggest need.

 

Funding the police service is the single biggest line item on the City's annual budget. (Funding for the TTC is broken up into two, operating and capital - combined they are bigger.)

 

The social housing network is on the verge of collapsing because there hasn't been enough investment in a lifetime. The maintenance backlog is in the multiple billions of dollars and climbing. Buildings are being threatened with closure because of disrepair.

 

The sewer and water network are holding on by a thread. Thankfully they aren't getting worse, but they aren't about to get much better, either.

 

You can't just throw all of your money at one problem. There are a lot of them in a City as big as Toronto.

 

10 hours ago, raptorjays said:

Unfortunately, everyone will keep voting for the incumbent one since all the candidates in the municipal election are not allowed to be represented by certain political parties need they need to promote themselves to beat the incumbent.

It has nothing to do with parties, or allowing the party structure to be used in municipal politics.

 

It's comfort. People are comfortable with the name that they see and hear every day. They see Mammoliti out and about every day, and his name in the media all the time, and they think that he's actually doing something good. People need to wake up and see how much damage people like him can do. The Municipal level of government is the most important one in our day-to-day lives, and yet its the one that people care about the least.

 

The only way to fix this is to learn about the options, and to make people aware of them. We have an election coming up. This can change.

 

Dan

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2 hours ago, Xtrazsteve said:

In central Etobicoke, barely anyone would take east west routes (32/52) across the city. It's much faster to just take north south routes to line 2 instead. It doesn't matter if they are reliable and not packed.

That could change when LRTs on Eglinton, and with luck Finch West, open up.

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12 hours ago, Orion V said:

I always wanted to ask this but forgot... Why were Eglinton (original), Islington, Warden, Vic Park (original) and St George (this one not too problematic as it's only one bus bay) built like they are today instead of the island in the middle with bus platforms surrounding it?

Was it cost, geography, etc?

I believe it has to do with when those stations were first built, they were outside certain zones so transferring to the buses from the subway requires a fare upgrade.

However, that doesn't explain why St George was built like that too.

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2 hours ago, Cityflyer said:

I believe it has to do with when those stations were first built, they were outside certain zones so transferring to the buses from the subway requires a fare upgrade.

However, that doesn't explain why St George was built like that too.

Main Street, and particularly Royal York, also had transfers (the big mezzanines were where the turnstiles and collectors booth were) but they're in an island bus platform configuration.

It could have to do with the number of bus routes coming into a station. Islington (37NB/SB, 44, 45, 46, 50) and Warden (17, 43, 57, 69, 70) had a lot, so maybe they thought that separate platforms would better handle the load. But that doesn't explain Victoria Park, which had only four routes (9, 12, 24, 67).

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On 7/12/2018 at 11:37 PM, lip said:

The government (particularly Ford) cant just wake up one day and decide to scrap the ADOA. He would be opening himself, and his party up for various lawsuits, severe Human Rights complaints, legal ramifications, etc.

The Ford regime is proporting to write legislation shielding itself from tearing up contracts. Simply amending AODA to take effect in 2030 rather than 2025 would be nothing to them. Quite frankly it's the only thing that TTC might have been hoping for a Ford government for, since they can give him cover for this by pointing out that the province - i.e. Liberals - downloaded the burden of making legacy infrastructure accessible to the municipality. In particular, an extension of time would avoid doing any work on the non-accessible SRT stations.

Islington: the notion was way back that SNC Lavalin would build a new HQ at Islington and the TTC would get a new station. When SNC pulled out of that plan there was no plan B.

Eglinton LRT: yes, the original idea was to Pearson but the Fords immediately screamed about "streetcars on their roads" and even now are agitating to bury Crosstown West. The other thing which never got built was N-S light rail from Kipling. I don't think anything particularly transit-friendly is coming out of the Six Points redevelopment, is there?

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Islington station could be permanently closed anytime. Bays 1 and 2 are structurally unsound. The rest of the station is not much better. Reinforcements have been added to delay the inevitable until the new hub opens at Kipling but those may not last long either.

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9 hours ago, andyman said:

Islington station could be permanently closed anytime. Bays 1 and 2 are structurally unsound. The rest of the station is not much better. Reinforcements have been added to delay the inevitable until the new hub opens at Kipling but those may not last long either.

Is there anything wrong with the mezzanine level where the fare booths and pedestrian entrances are? Those don't look to be under the bus terminal slab. I'm not aware of any other station where the basic station structure was completely gone.

I would assume that there is some kind of contingency plan to make a temporary bus terminal, for example the parking lot to the west of the bus bays.

You can't send Islington's buses to Kipling while both Kipling station and the six points intersection are all under construction. Royal York is a lot further for MT buses and doesn't seem adequate to handle that many buses anyway.

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1 hour ago, Ed T. said:

Is there anything wrong with the mezzanine level where the fare booths and pedestrian entrances are? Those don't look to be under the bus terminal slab. I'm not aware of any other station where the basic station structure was completely gone.

I would assume that there is some kind of contingency plan to make a temporary bus terminal, for example the parking lot to the west of the bus bays.

You can't send Islington's buses to Kipling while both Kipling station and the six points intersection are all under construction. Royal York is a lot further for MT buses and doesn't seem adequate to handle that many buses anyway.

Islington North and South buses would interline like 73/76 currently do with Royal York stations long term closure.  I believe they are hoping for the new hub at Kipling to be complete as well Royal York before Pisslington is permanently closed. As you can see all the areas now closed off now downstairs are full of structural reinforcements.

 

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The TTC hasnt even come up with a concrete plan to replace the current bus terminal at Islington, which is pretty mystifying. The Kipling regional hub is due for completion in 2020 which would take care of Mississauga buses at Islington. The Six Points reconstruction is also due for completion in 2020. I cant recall where I saw the plan, but there was a temporary plan to deal with the 110, 37, and 50 if the existing bus terminal is shut down.

The issue is, how long would the 37, 50, and 110 be disrupted for? It would take at least 2-4 years from whenever an actual concrete plan is released to replace the existing bus terminal, and for a new bus terminal to be put in place at Islington. Royal York has been chaos for the past 1+ years with the on-street bus loading, but I cant imagine TTC passengers having to endure that kind of set-up for 2-4 years at Islington. The TTC and City are really pushing it with regards to the AODA deadline, and whether the current bus bays at Islington will hold up for that long.

If for whatever reason the current bus bays dont hold up until 2020 and there are more forced closures of bays (ie: before the completion of both the Kipling regional hub and Six Points Reconfiguration), we're really going to be in for a complete disaster.

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2 hours ago, lip said:

The TTC hasnt even come up with a concrete plan to replace the current bus terminal at Islington, which is pretty mystifying. The Kipling regional hub is due for completion in 2020 which would take care of Mississauga buses at Islington. The Six Points reconstruction is also due for completion in 2020. I cant recall where I saw the plan, but there was a temporary plan to deal with the 110, 37, and 50 if the existing bus terminal is shut down.

The issue is, how long would the 37, 50, and 110 be disrupted for? It would take at least 2-4 years from whenever an actual concrete plan is released to replace the existing bus terminal, and for a new bus terminal to be put in place at Islington. Royal York has been chaos for the past 1+ years with the on-street bus loading, but I cant imagine TTC passengers having to endure that kind of set-up for 2-4 years at Islington. The TTC and City are really pushing it with regards to the AODA deadline, and whether the current bus bays at Islington will hold up for that long.

If for whatever reason the current bus bays dont hold up until 2020 and there are more forced closures of bays (ie: before the completion of both the Kipling regional hub and Six Points Reconfiguration), we're really going to be in for a complete disaster.

Early in the year Islington stations closure was imminent but they somehow managed to shore it up enough to remain open, now for how long no one really knows......yet.

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19 hours ago, andyman said:

Islington North and South buses would interline like 73/76 currently do with Royal York stations long term closure.

The branching setup on 110 is supposed to go Lake Shore/Long Branch/Lake Shore/Long Branch and when that gets screwed up it leaves people on the branching sections waiting for a long time.

The 37 A and B branches follow a similar dance in off-peak, but on-peak it looks like B is more frequent.

Sure, they can interline the routes. It will be a real mess for riders. And there would be no end date in sight as far as I know--there's no scheme to reconstruct the station in the works.

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23 hours ago, Ed T. said:

Is there anything wrong with the mezzanine level where the fare booths and pedestrian entrances are? Those don't look to be under the bus terminal slab. I'm not aware of any other station where the basic station structure was completely gone.

Nope, that part of the station is safe. The issue is with the load-bearing slab under the bus terminal.

 

17 hours ago, lip said:

The TTC hasnt even come up with a concrete plan to replace the current bus terminal at Islington, which is pretty mystifying. The Kipling regional hub is due for completion in 2020 which would take care of Mississauga buses at Islington. The Six Points reconstruction is also due for completion in 2020. I cant recall where I saw the plan, but there was a temporary plan to deal with the 110, 37, and 50 if the existing bus terminal is shut down.

The issue is, how long would the 37, 50, and 110 be disrupted for? It would take at least 2-4 years from whenever an actual concrete plan is released to replace the existing bus terminal, and for a new bus terminal to be put in place at Islington. Royal York has been chaos for the past 1+ years with the on-street bus loading, but I cant imagine TTC passengers having to endure that kind of set-up for 2-4 years at Islington. The TTC and City are really pushing it with regards to the AODA deadline, and whether the current bus bays at Islington will hold up for that long.

If for whatever reason the current bus bays dont hold up until 2020 and there are more forced closures of bays (ie: before the completion of both the Kipling regional hub and Six Points Reconfiguration), we're really going to be in for a complete disaster.

The TTC has a very concrete plan. It even involves the use of concrete.

 

The problem is, however, that they can't implement it until Mississauga Transit moves out of the facility. The new facility will only have 2 or 3 platforms, as that is all they'll need.

 

Dan

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1 hour ago, smallspy said:

Nope, that part of the station is safe. The issue is with the load-bearing slab under the bus terminal.

So "Islington station permanent closure" is only for the bus area. I figured that the station would remain open.

Then the cheap-and-dirty conversion of a parking lot to a bus terminal would be my guess as to what happens. I don't see interlining as being a reasonable solution. Although I guess the construction mess at Kipling station can be balanced with the mess at six points that MT has to go through to get to Islington station, so maybe MT could be moved out ahead of schedule.

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2 hours ago, Ed T. said:

So "Islington station permanent closure" is only for the bus area. I figured that the station would remain open.

Then the cheap-and-dirty conversion of a parking lot to a bus terminal would be my guess as to what happens. I don't see interlining as being a reasonable solution. Although I guess the construction mess at Kipling station can be balanced with the mess at six points that MT has to go through to get to Islington station, so maybe MT could be moved out ahead of schedule.

That is correct. The bus facility would be moved to where the current kiss-and-ride/taxi area is. This would allow them to maintain much of the parking lot.

 

Dan

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9 hours ago, smallspy said:

The TTC has a very concrete plan. It even involves the use of concrete.

 

The problem is, however, that they can't implement it until Mississauga Transit moves out of the facility. The new facility will only have 2 or 3 platforms, as that is all they'll need.

 

Dan

Ah, so back to the original plan that they had way back in 2010. It's pathetic that we've had such a significant delay for a project that was supposed to be complete nearly 10 years ago. I made the decision back then to keep the original open house flyer just to see how long the whole situation would drag on for, maybe one day ill mail it to the TTC and Metrolinx so they can add it to their historical collections.

 

 

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