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2019 Nova LFS Order

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i find that almost every transit agency wants Nova Buses of any kind for their fleet if it isnt natural gas buses for HSR it is desiel buses for burlington, toronto,mississagua and oakville to name a few i guess novas are popular  the only Xeclsor orders i have seen are for the ttc and they are electric does nova bus not make electric buses

but what i am trying to say is well done OC Transpo you will love them

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28 minutes ago, HamiltonTransit1710 said:

i find that almost every transit agency wants Nova Buses of any kind for their fleet if it isnt natural gas buses for HSR it is desiel buses for burlington, toronto,mississagua and oakville to name a few i guess novas are popular  the only Xeclsor orders i have seen are for the ttc and they are electric does nova bus not make electric buses

but what i am trying to say is well done OC Transpo you will love them

The only reason transit agencies are getting them is because of the Metrolinx Transit Procurement Initiative with the volume discount attached. The volume discount only being provided after a large order to generate savings. 

Mississauga ordered some Xcelisor buses just for the MiExpress fleet. Differentiate between the MiLocal buses from the rebranding campaign a few years ago. The Novas are reserved for the local service. 

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1 hour ago, GTAmissions1 said:

The only reason transit agencies are getting them is because of the Metrolinx Transit Procurement Initiative with the volume discount attached. The volume discount only being provided after a large order to generate savings.

Toronto doesn't participate in the Metrolinx Transit Procurement Initiative, as its orders are large enough to merit their own volume discounts.

 

No, the reason why the agencies are getting them is because Nova has been a lot more aggressive with their pricing over the past couple of years. Just like how NFI won the first couple of MTPI contracts.

 

Dan

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NFI could of easily won the Metrolinx contract if they offered a cheaper price on the bid. Nova just out bid them. It all comes down to $$$. Just like everything else  in this world, Money Money Money has the buying power, offer the right price and in most cases you'll win.

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Just now, MCIBUS said:

NFI could of easily won the Metrolinx contract if they offered a cheaper price on the bid. Nova just out bid them. It all comes down to $$$. Just like everything else  in this world, Money Money Money has the buying power, offer the right price and in most cases you'll win.

No shit, Sherlock. That's how contract law works.

 

And when the contract is released next year, we may see NFI win it. Or not.

 

Dan

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4 hours ago, MCIBUS said:

NFI could of easily won the Metrolinx contract if they offered a cheaper price on the bid. Nova just out bid them. It all comes down to $$$. Just like everything else  in this world, Money Money Money has the buying power, offer the right price and in most cases you'll win.

The STM can easily disprove this. The Azur train contract to Bombardier-Alstom was actually undercut by a Chinese company who was rejected on the grounds that their trains were not rubber-tired. http://spacing.ca/montreal/2010/02/12/zhuzhou-electric-locomotive-c-quebec-la-stm-et-les-pneumatiques/

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4 hours ago, Transit geek said:

The STM can easily disprove this. The Azur train contract to Bombardier-Alstom was actually undercut by a Chinese company who was rejected on the grounds that their trains were not rubber-tired. http://spacing.ca/montreal/2010/02/12/zhuzhou-electric-locomotive-c-quebec-la-stm-et-les-pneumatiques/

procurement orders are based off a list of set criteria, and then ranks the bids on those criteria. And then they decide.

This typically involves looking at risks, liability, what cptdb thinks, net present value and etc.

Edited by CanadaGoose
Sarcasm

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2 hours ago, CanadaGoose said:

procurement orders based off a list of set criteria, and then ranks the bids on those criteria. And then they decide.

This typically involves looking at risks, liability, net present value and etc.

Exactly. No matter what a lot of people on here may like to think, the bidding and tendering process is never so cut-and-dried as it seems at first blush. There are all sorts of ways for organizations to allow themselves the leeway they need in order to prevent a particular company from winning the bid, or to allow them to toss out a bid that may on the surface appear too good to be true - such as that one for Montréal.

 

But that also cuts the other way as well. Nova won the last two of the Metrolinx transit bus tenders - whereas NFI won the two previous. Both of those companies know exactly how finely they can cut their margins in order to win the tender - or at which point to cut their losses and say "screw it" and not submit one.

 

Dan

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On 7/4/2018 at 4:08 PM, Kit Kat said:

Really?  I drive diesels every day.   Junk! 

Everyone's opinion is valid. I dare say that these units will be a significantly improved over their much maligned 9700 series first gens. Nova has come a long way in two decades and I hope their product delivers on OC's expectations. Credit should go to most Quebec operators who endured the long teething process so that the rest of North America can benefit from a decent bus.

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47 minutes ago, Kit Kat said:

Mario:  we were talking specifically about the HVAC on the Novas.   The person I was quoting was saying that the AC works better on a diesel compared to a CNG.    They both use the same HVAC system so there is no difference.

Are we absolutely certain? The respective evap. and condenser cores effective surface areas might be a bit smaller on the CNG models to accommodate the fuel tanks.

If the official PDF spec. Sheet is taken at face value, diesel versions get the MCC (carrier) 353 as standard, with T/K Athenia as an option, but the fart burner only has T/K available, and even the common “athenia” model name is no guarantee that every single part crosses over between both fuel types.

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Now you’re putting words in my mouth.

the point I was trying to make was that they may not necessarily be identical systems with identical cooling capacities due to roof space limitations.

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Also if I'm not mistaken CNG buses have the tanks on the roof. You can only mount so many things on the roof. True you can have rear A/C, but I'm not sure if you can put CNG tanks & roof mouned A/C units both on the roof. I'm not sure if you have enough room to do so? I could be mistaken though?😶

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9 hours ago, Kit Kat said:

Mario:  we were talking specifically about the HVAC on the Novas.   The person I was quoting was saying that the AC works better on a diesel compared to a CNG.    They both use the same HVAC system so there is no difference.

 

9 hours ago, Kit Kat said:

So does that mean AC in a diesel should work better?  

The A/C in the CNG models does not work properly because of a couple design flaws. For one, there is not enough insulation over the engine to stop the heat from coming into the bus. Number two, the ducting for the A/C does not go all the way to the back of the bus because of the CNG tanks. 

 

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15 hours ago, MCIBUS said:

Also if I'm not mistaken CNG buses have the tanks on the roof. You can only mount so many things on the roof. True you can have rear A/C, but I'm not sure if you can put CNG tanks & roof mouned A/C units both on the roof. I'm not sure if you have enough room to do so? I could be mistaken though?😶

They seem to do it. Maybe a quick check on Google.

 

7 hours ago, JRM1000 said:

The A/C in the CNG models does not work properly because of a couple design flaws. For one, there is not enough insulation over the engine to stop the heat from coming into the bus. Number two, the ducting for the A/C does not go all the way to the back of the bus because of the CNG tanks. =

It's not just the CNG models. The TTC's diesels also have these same problems, and its expected that the hybrids will as well.

 

The issue may stem as much or more from the choice of A/C model and manufacturer than anything else.

 

Dan

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Why buy 82 new Novas when the plan is to park all +170 Orion 7s?  

Wouldn’t it be cheaper to keep 1/2 the 7s for a longer period of time?

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4 minutes ago, 8792 said:

Why but 82 new Novas when the plan is to park all +170 Orion 7s?  

Wouldn’t it be cheaper to keep 1/2 the 7s for a longer period of time?

I don't think that was ever actually confirmed.

But otherwise, the D40i's need to go because they're too old, and also after the Confederation Line opens, the city will need fewer buses. The hybrids are also really expensive to maintain.

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The reason they are getting rid of the Orion 7s is because they will soon need very expensive battery replacements, they might as well just buy new buses and it would not be cheaper to keep some of the hybrids. They will need fewer buses, that’s why they are only replacing some of the buses that will be retired, including the Inveros and Hybrids.

Also, keep in mind they are also getting new double deckers.

-Charlie 

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On ‎7‎/‎15‎/‎2018 at 2:50 PM, Charlie said:

The reason they are getting rid of the Orion 7s is because they will soon need very expensive battery replacements, they might as well just buy new buses and it would not be cheaper to keep some of the hybrids. They will need fewer buses, that’s why they are only replacing some of the buses that will be retired, including the Inveros and Hybrids.

Also, keep in mind they are also getting new double deckers.

-Charlie 

I understand OC got the hybrids with the recommended lithium-ion batteries. and got - or should get - close to the claimed service life. TTC cheaped out and got lead-acid batteries - and ended up replacing those like crazy!

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Believe me when I say that lithium ion is not a panacea. More like lipstick on a pig. If that were the case, Toronto wouldn’t be retiring its’s 2009s as I type this- which may I add are identical to yours.

About the only hybridrive system that hasn’t been drastically revised -as a result of the lessons learned from the first incarnations, including Ottawa's, is the Cummins mill.

Furthermore, nobody “cheaped out”. Those things were 750 000$ apiece back in 2006. Li-po cells were not available in that application until at least post 2007.

In fact, #1062 was one of the first retrofit prototypes used to mature the technology that OC, and everyone else with them now use.

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I'm just curious on how the STO find their Nova LFS since they been using them for some time now. Grant you I'm not sure if there the same type OC getting though?

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On 7/21/2018 at 2:11 PM, MCIBUS said:

I'm just curious on how the STO find their Nova LFS since they been using them for some time now. Grant you I'm not sure if there the same type OC getting though?

Enough, to keep buying more and more to replace the Classics.

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