Bus Network Redesign

[8010]

2 hours ago, M. Parsons said:

Recently?

The current map hasn't changed as far as I can tell since it was posted? Certainly everything you listed has been there since September or October. 

I didn’t recall seeing the 600 routes or the 795 and 994, nor did I recall seeing STAT routes or any of the other regional routes a few weeks ago.

[ygk]

I feel like the numbering doesn’t make logical sense. If ETS wanted to do it geographically like their map wants to suggest maybe they should have assigned 100 series to West Edmonton. Then, going clockwise:

200 St Albert, 300 North Edmonton, 400 Strathcona County, 500 Southeast Edmonton, 600 Southwest Edmonton, 700, 800, 900 specials

[M. Parsons]

3 hours ago, ygk said:

I feel like the numbering doesn’t make logical sense. If ETS wanted to do it geographically like their map wants to suggest maybe they should have assigned 100 series to West Edmonton. Then, going clockwise:

200 St Albert, 300 North Edmonton, 400 Strathcona County, 500 Southeast Edmonton, 600 Southwest Edmonton, 700, 800, 900 specials

They did do it logically to a degree I'd say.

Starting at the top/ North of the City they went clockwise as 100, 500, 700, 900. Clearly, they didn't want to consecutively number any one region, although they could have. 

Consider too that they might have come up with this numbering scheme taking into consideration future regional routes. It's quite possible the 200's could disappear under the regional commission, or, St. Albert could end up ditching the A series route and 200's become local. None the less, during the roll out of ETS's new network that is not the case. 200 series are commuter, A series are local as it stands now.

There is the exception of course of the Beaumont, Fort Saskatchewan, and Spruce Grove routes. This may or may not be as much of an issue with Beaumont as I believe they are replacing ETS as their contractor. I doubt the route number will change, but, you never know. 

[Ode of Bund]

This is part of the interactive map, how come there is no service on Stony Plain Road from 116 Street all the way to Jasper Place, and no service on 156 Street from Jasper Place to Meadowlark, and no service on 149 Street between 95 Avenue and 87 Avenue??

 

[captaintrolley]

ETS is the only transit system that can improve service by making it worse. I am really not looking forward to any of this.

[brookiedbj]

5 hours ago, Ode of Bund said:

This is part of the interactive map, how come there is no service on Stony Plain Road from 116 Street all the way to Jasper Place, and no service on 156 Street from Jasper Place to Meadowlark, and no service on 149 Street between 95 Avenue and 87 Avenue??

Probably because they don't know how the detours for Valley West construction are gonna look

[T6H-5307N]

6 hours ago, brookiedbj said:

Probably because they don't know how the detours for Valley West construction are gonna look

I agree that it was most likely changed to accommodate West LRT construction. The network approved by city council in late 2019 included the West portions of the routes 1 & 2 pretty much unchanged from the previous system. It appears these routings have now been modified to increase service reliability during LRT construction. The West portion of the rte 1 was eliminated entirely. The West portion of the rte 2 is now running out of downtown via WB Jasper Avenue, NB 121 Street, WB 102 Avenue (to replace the rte 1), then 142 Street SB (instead of 149 Street) and 87 Avenue WB.

To cover the missing portions of both routes, there will now be a new route 7 that runs out of downtown via WB 104 Avenue, NB 116 Street, WB 107 Avenue, SB 149 Street, WB 95 Avenue, SB 170 Street, then WB to whereever the West Edmonton Mall terminal happens to be (either the current version on the South side of the mall or the temporary version on the North side of the mall they will be using during LRT construction). It covers *most* of the areas that have lost service, but obviously some residents will be in for a bit longer of a walk to reach the frequent transit network routes.

[Blake M]

18 hours ago, Ode of Bund said:

This is part of the interactive map, how come there is no service on Stony Plain Road from 116 Street all the way to Jasper Place, and no service on 156 Street from Jasper Place to Meadowlark, and no service on 149 Street between 95 Avenue and 87 Avenue??

 

Also no service on 156 Street between Stony Plain Road and 87 Ave. I imagine that's going to anger plenty of riders

[captaintrolley]

1 hour ago, Blake M said:

Also no service on 156 Street between Stony Plain Road and 87 Ave. I imagine that's going to anger plenty of riders

And business owners.  Some businesses set up on roads where they know people can easily access them by car AND by bus. Granted 156 street is mostly residential, but there are a handful of businesses, pharmacies, clinics etc that will now most likely loose their clientele that rely on public transit.

[T6H-5307N]

1 hour ago, captaintrolley said:

And business owners.  Some businesses set up on roads where they know people can easily access them by car AND by bus. Granted 156 street is mostly residential, but there are a handful of businesses, pharmacies, clinics etc that will now most likely loose their clientele that rely on public transit.

I disagree. The vast majority of the businesses are clustered around 100 Avenue, 95 Avenue, or Meadowlark, all areas that will still have service in the new network. For those specific zones, the loss of a bus directly down 156 Street will mean an extra two blocks of walking at most. Recall that the whole premise of this system is to streamline the service at the expense of convenience for a handful of people. Also consider that this matches the West LRT alignment with the same three stops (Jasper Place, 95 Avenue, Meadowlark) being the only service in that corridor. Is it a perfect solution without the direct LRT connection? No, but if it leads to a service that isn't constantly being delayed and detoured due to construction then it might not be so bad after all.

I am more concerned about the loss of direct service to Jasper Place via Stony Plain Road, however I am going to wait and see how exactly how the 107 Avenue express route is implemented before making a final judgement.

 

[captaintrolley]

4 hours ago, T6H-5307N said:

The vast majority of the businesses are clustered around 100 Avenue, 95 Avenue, or Meadowlark, all areas that will still have service in the new network.

I agree with you there, but more generally speaking, not so much 156 street but just in general, some businesses may be negatively impacted by the changes. There are some businesses on 118 Ave and Groat Road that, although they will have service, will be negatively impacted by the current route 3 not going that way. That route has been in place forever.

[T6H-5307N]

On 1/15/2021 at 1:02 PM, captaintrolley said:

I agree with you there, but more generally speaking, not so much 156 street but just in general, some businesses may be negatively impacted by the changes. There are some businesses on 118 Ave and Groat Road that, although they will have service, will be negatively impacted by the current route 3 not going that way. That route has been in place forever.

I'll agree that I can see that one becoming an issue! If I were going to make a change there I'd propose a rte 3a/3b, where the 3a is the planned Westmount-Stadium via 111 Avenue rte 125 replacement and the 3b turns NB 124 Street, WB 118 Ave, and then terminates at the 142 Street / 118 Ave trolley bus loop. Dunno if the ridership would be enough to justify frequent transit on both branches, but it would be nice to have the direct connection.

[captaintrolley]

It will be a real upheaval when they change routes that have been in place for several decades with an established ridership and destinations that people have been patronizing for a long time.  They should have kept a dozen or so 'anchor' routes and then just build and plan around those.

[ygk]

Is there another city in Canada (or elsewhere) that systematically overhauls its entire transit system every two decades or so?

[T6H-5307N]

5 hours ago, ygk said:

Is there another city in Canada (or elsewhere) that systematically overhauls its entire transit system every two decades or so?

I'll admit I laughed pretty hard when I read this

To Edmonton's credit, there are also not that many cities that have managed to double their population and land area every 20 years or so? Not that the city should be excused for being incapable of planning ahead, but I suppose that is at least a little bit of an excuse?

[M. Parsons]

Big dump of new data for the network redesign on ETS's pages for it.

- individual route maps (no schedules)

-  system maps including late night and Downtown

- frequency lookup

- lots more On Demand information

I do like the looks of the system map.

Not impressed with some frequencies on the so called Frequently Transit Network. Like the 5 at best having 15 minute service. I'm guessing that's not including short turns. 

[captaintrolley]

55 minutes ago, M. Parsons said:

Not impressed with some frequencies on the so called Frequently Transit Network. Like the 5 at best having 15 minute service. I'm guessing that's not including short turns. 

I am not impressed either. ETS has always considered 15 minute service to be frequent. There was better frequency on the nickel back in the 60's.

[T6H-5307N]

6 hours ago, M. Parsons said:

Not impressed with some frequencies on the so called Frequently Transit Network. Like the 5 at best having 15 minute service. I'm guessing that's not including short turns. 

 

5 hours ago, captaintrolley said:

I am not impressed either. ETS has always considered 15 minute service to be frequent. There was better frequency on the nickel back in the 60's.

I concur with @M. Parsons that as disappointing as some of the frequencies seem, we might not be getting the whole picture yet. IIRC the FTN frequencies are still advertised as "xx minutes or better." The frequency lookup might just be reporting the MINIMUM frequency as opposed to the actual frequency including every single school and/or peak extra run.

I'll repeat myself again I guess... I'm waiting for the actual timetables before passing final judgement

I really like the new maps -- much easier on the eyes.

[Blake M]

6 hours ago, M. Parsons said:

Not impressed with some frequencies on the so called Frequently Transit Network. Like the 5 at best having 15 minute service. I'm guessing that's not including short turns. 

Hopefully it'll only be for a while due to COVID ridership numbers and that within a couple years we'll see that number increase

[T6H-5307N]

1 hour ago, Blake M said:

Hopefully it'll only be for a while due to COVID ridership numbers and that within a couple years we'll see that number increase

As logical as your idea is (I'm always hoping for more service hours!), it is very unlikely that the original proposed frequencies have been modified due to Covid. Any reductions along those lines would have needed approval from numerous parties including city council, city administration, and the transit union. In other words, if that were the case we would have already heard about it through the media or other official sources.

 

[M. Parsons]

1 hour ago, Blake M said:

Hopefully it'll only be for a while due to COVID ridership numbers and that within a couple years we'll see that number increase

No, we suspect that short turns aren't included in the frequencies provided. It's actually the opposite of the current frequency table ETS has out. As an example, on that it shows the 5 has having a frequency of 8 minutes (actually 7/8 or 7.5 minutes), but, that frequency is only between Downtown and Westmount.

With the new system and how they have presented the information, they're just providing the base service for the entire route.

The 5 still shows at short turn stop at the CN Tower loop on the new Downtown maps. This clearly also applies to the 4 (Boonie Doon short turn routing) and more than likely the 33. There are probably other examples, but, not as easy to tell at this point.

ETS is providing almost full pre-Covid service. The only thing that is really reduced in frequency is the Capital Line LRT, and perhaps some University service.
Indeed, at the 2021 Budget adjustments this past fall there was a package of service cuts to help bring the tax increase down to 0% that would have cut service before the new system went into service. This was rejected, so, the new system will see the level of service intended for August 30 as it was in budget for 2020, approved in late 2019.

 

[M. Parsons]

I made a frequency chart for the new network since ETS doesn't specifically have one yet. 

BNR Frequency Table

The 520x Mystery - Surprise is unknown what the route is. It is supposed to be a LRT replacement like the 510x, it is on new bus stop signs, but there's been nothing published for it's route. It's possible ETS dropped the plans for the 520x, but, it still made it onto bus stop signs. Until I know more, I've left a place holder for it.

[CDW]

Deleted

[brianc1981]

I am in favor of finally checking out the redesign next time I am in Edmonton. I am hoping its a lot better then it currently is, although one of my friends, is now going to have to leave home at 7:10 to get her daughter to her school in time for 8:15 compared to leaving at 7:35 now. It went from 2 buses to 3 with a long wait in between the first and second bus and then on a whim and prayer they will wait less then 2 minutes from bus 2 to bus 3. Currently it is 2 buses and it stops closer to the school. So there is more walking involved which is ok but its the longer time between buses and the extra bus she isn't happy about. Also for her to go to work now it is 2 buses and it stops right outside. New service and it will be 2 buses and a 15 minute walk and it is a longer trip by bus. Hopefully they make modifications on the fly with this when they realize there will be a bit of inconvenience for some people

[M. Parsons]

7 hours ago, brianc1981 said:

I am in favor of finally checking out the redesign next time I am in Edmonton. I am hoping its a lot better then it currently is, although one of my friends, is now going to have to leave home at 7:10 to get her daughter to her school in time for 8:15 compared to leaving at 7:35 now. It went from 2 buses to 3 with a long wait in between the first and second bus and then on a whim and prayer they will wait less then 2 minutes from bus 2 to bus 3. Currently it is 2 buses and it stops closer to the school. So there is more walking involved which is ok but its the longer time between buses and the extra bus she isn't happy about. Also for her to go to work now it is 2 buses and it stops right outside. New service and it will be 2 buses and a 15 minute walk and it is a longer trip by bus. Hopefully they make modifications on the fly with this when they realize there will be a bit of inconvenience for some people

There isn't a lot of positive responses on social media to the new network. A big question is going to be what the "silent majority" think. It's entirely possible the vast majority are happy with the changes. 

I personally don't think that will be the case. And although I supported the overall concept, I am wondering if service to the "suburbs" has been cut too much. 

And what actually defines "suburbs" for Edmonton?

Personally, I have some improvements during some time periods and it's worse and others, so I'm generally on the fence.