2019/2020 Double-Decker bus Procurement

[Express691]

According to page 153 on the December 14, 2017 Board Meeting report, there is a project titled "2019 Conventional bus expansion" under the 2018 New Capital Program that highlights the replacement of 25 High Floor Buses with 32 double-decker Low Floor buses.

What we DON'T KNOW at this moment:
1) Destination sign
2) Seats (I know they went with Lazzerini but I forgot which type).
3) Height and configurations (including the engine, doors, seating arrangement)
4) Which Orions will be replaced

What we DO know at this moment:
1) Alexander Dennis will be providing the double deckers (since they're the only successful makers in North America thus far)
2) Colour scheme
3) Transit Centre (besides RTC because a chunk of them are going there for sure.)
4) Route specifics (aside from 601/555 linegroup)

[Michael Marriott]

We do know which transit centre they will run out of.  There's a line in the capital plan to upgrade RTC to accommodate double deckers.

[Phillip]

Hmm, so 27 Double Decker buses? I recall on news media a few weeks ago that Translink plans to procure 32 of them, 27 to replace and 5 for expansion. 

And were getting 25 suburban Nova as well, I heard rumors at RTC that RTC is getting them to also replace some Orions.  

[Dane]

You'd also think that it won't be a literal 27 for 27 high floor to double decker swap; the 620 as we see now strikes me as an ideal candidate for continued double decker use. Obviously that's a 60-footer assignment now. 

 

Nice to see Translink moving forward with it, though. Between these and the Nova suburbans it'll be the end of the high-floor era! 

[Express691]

2 hours ago, Dane said:

You'd also think that it won't be a literal 27 for 27 high floor to double decker swap; the 620 as we see now strikes me as an ideal candidate for continued double decker use. Obviously that's a 60-footer assignment now. 

Nice to see Translink moving forward with it, though. Between these and the Nova suburbans it'll be the end of the high-floor era! 

Right, since 2 Orions could be replaced with 1 decker

[ThatBusGuy]

1 hour ago, Express691 said:

Right, since 2 Orions could be replaced with 1 decker

Would introducing double deckers affect the plan to make the 601 part of the FTN? Assuming some of the new buses are used for things other than the RTC Orion routes (620, 301, 555, etc), I'm not sure how much the increased capacity would change the need for frequency. And if they retire more Orions than new double deckers, even with other new suburban buses coming in, would there be enough to maintain that service?

[SidneyTransitfan]

I can definitely see this Double Decker order replacing more Orions than the number associated (approx ratio 32 to 51) with the remaining 25 units being replaced by the new Nova Suburbans. There will still be high floors in the fleet, but they'll be sparse. (9277-9285 which still have about 10 years of life left in them).

[Transit geek]

I wonder if Translink would consider buying the SuperLo that GO Transit is using. I am thinking this is unlikely, though, due to the gentle height clearances of the region's highways.

[Large Cat]

Why buy any suburban Nova's at all? Just make them all double-deckers!

I know...it costs money...

[Express691]

Sorry if this is small, but this is where I got my information from. Page 153. 

Thus, it will be a 1 for 1 replacement

[GORDOOM]

Just because that's what they're for on paper doesn't mean it's what will happen. But what kind of shape are the Orion Vs in, anyway? Theoretically, high-floors should stand up better than low-floors structurally, but it also depends on usage and initial build quality.

[Express691]

3 minutes ago, GORDOOM said:

Just because that's what they're for on paper doesn't mean it's what will happen. But what kind of shape are the Orion Vs in, anyway? Theoretically, high-floors should stand up better than low-floors structurally, but it also depends on usage and initial build quality.

Nonetheless it's still an Official TransLink document. 

 

As far as I know, they are still refurbishing Orions.

[Bus_Medic]

12 hours ago, GORDOOM said:

Just because that's what they're for on paper doesn't mean it's what will happen. But what kind of shape are the Orion Vs in, anyway? Theoretically, high-floors should stand up better than low-floors structurally, but it also depends on usage and initial build quality.

Not really. Our Vs developed fractures over the rear axle as much as our 7s have.

-plus step well rot.

[Dane]

One-for-one replacement of the Orion's doesn't actually mean one-for-one replacement in terms of daily use, though. Like I said earlier the 620 is a perfect example of where I could see Deckers being used, but not replacing an Orion obviously. 

[GORDOOM]

10 hours ago, Bus_Medic said:

Not really. Our Vs developed fractures over the rear axle as much as our 7s have.

-plus step well rot.

But you guys in Toronto also use a lot more road salt than we do. At the same time, I hadn't realized that our first Orion Vs came in 2000 - I thought the first batch were 2002s for some reason. Between that and the fact that high-floors are politically undesirable, maybe they will all be gone by 2020? I wouldn't be surprised to see at least part of the fleet last longer, though.

[Bus_Medic]

Road salt isn’t the be all and end all to every longevity argument.

theres also mileage related stress fatigue. 

[Dane]

5 hours ago, GORDOOM said:

. Between that and the fact that high-floors are politically undesirable, maybe they will all be gone by 2020? I wouldn't be surprised to see at least part of the fleet last longer, though.

While I agree there was a long-time anti-high floor sentiment, I dl not think it is relevant here. The retirement cycle for these current HF buses in pretty much exactly in line with what could be reasonably expected for any forty footer. 

[Express691]

OFFICIAL RELEASE from Global says that we are getting 3 more, making that 32.

I hereby permit these buses be added to the -on order- section of the wiki.

http://glbn.ca/IYpVja

[GORDOOM]

1 hour ago, Express691 said:

I hereby permit these buses be added to the -on order- section of the wiki.

The master has spoken, all heed ye.

[Doppelkupplung]

It'll be interesting to see which spec interior they stick with....wood flooring would be a first for Canada...

[Chinese Daniel]

http://www.richmond-news.com/news/32-double-decker-buses-to-join-translink-fleet-by-2019-1.23154042

[northwesterner]

On 1/23/2018 at 10:47 AM, MiWay0310 said:

It'll be interesting to see which spec interior they stick with....wood flooring would be a first for Canada...

No, please no.

None of these newer flooring materials does as well from an anti-slip perspective as good old RCA rubber with the grooves in the flooring.

This is especially important in a climate where there is a lot of rain.

[Doppelkupplung]

1 minute ago, northwesterner said:

No, please no.

None of these newer flooring materials does as well from an anti-slip perspective as good old RCA rubber with the grooves in the flooring.

This is especially important in a climate where there is a lot of rain.

I don’t mean physical wood lol. The actual design of the floor. And I’ll bet they took all those things into consideration when designing and producing the floors with the wood design. 

But agreed, the standard rubber floor with drainage channels is always the best. 

[northwesterner]

Just now, MiWay0310 said:

I don’t mean physical wood lol. The actual design of the floor. And I’ll bet they took all those things into consideration when designing and producing the floors with the wood design. 

But agreed, the standard rubber floor with drainage channels is always the best. 

I know what you meant. I'm familiar with the flooring choices. 

 

I have some experience with this. Seattle Metro got away from RCA rubber over 20 years ago. They tried a couple of different materials from 1996-2002, before going back to RCA rubber. The problem with either rubbery type floor or the sandpaper type floor, is that, while they are pretty nonstick when your feet are wet but the floor is mostly dry, they don't have anywhere from the water to go and on a route with a ton of passenger turnover in a heavy rain, the water just pools on the floor, and the floors get slippery.

 

When I drove for / managed a charter company we had newer MCIs delivered with sandpaper type floor (I'm sorry I don't remember the manufacturer of this flooring - I knew it at one time). On multiple occasions on wet days, I slipped right down the front stairs because there was enough water on the steps to counteract any nonstick effect. I was aware this was a problem and I still slipped and fell. What about the passengers who were less aware of this problem? 

As some of those coaches aged, the flooring wore out, and we decided to replace the steps and entry way flooring with RCA rubber. The shop and drivers found that to be much more satisfactory than the newer flooring options.

[Doppelkupplung]

14 minutes ago, northwesterner said:

I know what you meant. I'm familiar with the flooring choices. 

 

I have some experience with this. Seattle Metro got away from RCA rubber over 20 years ago. They tried a couple of different materials from 1996-2002, before going back to RCA rubber. The problem with either rubbery type floor or the sandpaper type floor, is that, while they are pretty nonstick when your feet are wet but the floor is mostly dry, they don't have anywhere from the water to go and on a route with a ton of passenger turnover in a heavy rain, the water just pools on the floor, and the floors get slippery.

 

When I drove for / managed a charter company we had newer MCIs delivered with sandpaper type floor (I'm sorry I don't remember the manufacturer of this flooring - I knew it at one time). On multiple occasions on wet days, I slipped right down the front stairs because there was enough water on the steps to counteract any nonstick effect. I was aware this was a problem and I still slipped and fell. What about the passengers who were less aware of this problem? 

As some of those coaches aged, the flooring wore out, and we decided to replace the steps and entry way flooring with RCA rubber. The shop and drivers found that to be much more satisfactory than the newer flooring options.

Fair enough. However, in Mississauga, our last 8 or so years have included sandpaper floors and I’ve never seen people struggle with it. 

I think the case with the MCI would likely have been because there aren’t enough points of drainage, but I think you would know much more. 

On new flyers, there is a slight gradient on the floors to direct water and grit etc to the exits. Additionally, they have these small drainage holes that can be found behind every wheel inside the bus. It’s a small hole through which you can see the ground below.

Of course, you would know much more than I do, but I’m just explaining what I’ve seen and experienced.