2018/2019 Electric Bus Project

[Express691]

This comes out of Mass Transit Magazine

http://www.masstransitmag.com/article/12353530/canada-sets-the-course-with-zero-emission-bus-demonstration-trial

All we know is that 4 buses are to be purchased. New Flyer confirmed, not sure about Nova though.

August 18 update: 
Found the source proving we will get 4 electric buses
https://www.translink.ca/-/media/Documents/about_translink/governance_and_board/board_minutes_and_reports/2017/June/20170623---Open-Board-Meeting-Presentation.pdf

[Large Cat]

Shaping up to be a fun year. Electric bus trials, new cng buses in Surrey, hopefully a full B-Line on 41st by January or April. Maybe they'll start construction  on the Broadway extension too before the end of the school year.

I would love to see future 40 foot diesel/hybrid/cng orders go 100% to battery buses.

[maege]

33 minutes ago, Large Cat said:

I would love to see future 40 foot diesel/hybrid/cng orders go 100% to battery buses.

Same. I hope that starting 2018 or 2019 at the latest, all buses ordered will be fully electric, no more diesel or natural gas needed for new buses.

I definitely think it is possible, seeing what other transit agencies are doing already. The biggest factor that needs work is probably figuring out what type of charging systems/types to use, or to use more than one type of system depending on the type of route, and the best way to integrate the charging into the bus network. I have a feeling that it will be larger batteries with "top up" chargers installed at bus loops and exchanges, which should allow for easy all day use, but that is still to be decided.

[Dr. BusFreak]

1 hour ago, Express691 said:

not sure about Nova though.

Kevin Desmond mentioned in an open board meeting recently saying that they will purchase 2 New Flyer and 2 Nova buses.

[8010]

This project is still happening, right? I haven't seen any new information for months now regarding the pilot.

[Stormscape]

Buses take awhile to be built, especially when they're special one offs.

[8010]

Just now, Stormscape said:

Buses take awhile to be built, especially when they're special one offs.

Oh I thought they were just coming from another agency that's testing them, I didn't know that Nova and New Flyer were actually building new units for TransLink, is CMBC supposed to keep the 4 units once the trial is done or are they going back?

[Stormscape]

TransLink is purchasing these vehicles outright, last I heard.

[Brando737]

On 2018-03-24 at 3:15 PM, Stormscape said:

TransLink is purchasing these vehicles outright, last I heard.

Yes I believe the 4 buses were mentioned as being purchased during the last board meeting.  They want to do a 2 year trial for these buses so they will be more than worth the purchase price and the cost is being spread between a few parties as far I know.  Next board meeting is this week so hopefully we will find out more information soon.

Wanted to add in that City of Vancouver has made a commitment to be 100% electric by 2050 I believe so these 4 buses will go through some serious testing as they could be future orders for VTC and Silvertree for diesel and trolley replacement around 2026.

[8010]

27 minutes ago, Brando737 said:

Yes I believe the 4 buses were mentioned as being purchased during the last board meeting.  They want to do a 2 year trial for these buses so they will be more than worth the purchase price and the cost is being spread between a few parties as far I know.  Next board meeting is this week so hopefully we will find out more information soon.

Wanted to add in that City of Vancouver has made a commitment to be 100% electric by 2050 I believe so these 4 buses will go through some serious testing as they could be future orders for VTC and Silvertree for diesel and trolley replacement around 2026.

Speaking of which, is there any word on when construction of Silvertree is supposed to take place? I see work trucks at the site every now and then when I take the Canada Line to/from Richmond.

[Express691]

Bump, regarding live stream today:

Electric bus testing to happen along route 100.

Charging stations to be located at 22nd Street Station as well as Marpole Loop.

Not sure what the involvement of the XE60 was all about.

One problem I have is if youre running (-10) and you have to turn and burn. Will they force drivers to take breaks and cut into service? I'm sure TransLink will look into this on a schedulers perspective.

http://buzzer.translink.ca/2018/04/translink-leads-the-charge-launching-new-electric-bus-trial/#comment-2807454

[Brando737]

In the video, it was mentioned that they can increase the charging speed if needed if the bus is running late.  Also, the range is about 30-40km and the 100 route is 15km each way so if the bus doesn't get a full charge, it still has allot of battery left to get to the other end without issue.

The XE60 was probably here just for the announcement, saw on another Facebook group a photo of an XE40 somewhere in the USA the other day being looked at by a transit agency so the 60 was all they had I'm guessing.  And why not show it off, if the trial goes well, XE60's could be a possibility in the future.

[Large Cat]

Baby blue.

[martin607]

On ‎12‎/‎04‎/‎2018 at 7:51 PM, Express691 said:

One problem I have is if youre running (-10) and you have to turn and burn. Will they force drivers to take breaks and cut into service? I'm sure TransLink will look into this on a schedulers perspective.

 

http://buzzer.translink.ca/2018/04/translink-leads-the-charge-launching-new-electric-bus-trial/#comment-2807454

This is one of the potential problems with battery electric buses in practical service and why it is important for Translink to gain real life service experience. I have seen a presentation about the trial battery electric route 133 in Cologne, Germany. If the battery buses get delayed in traffic they eventually fall behind on their charging and have to be substituted by diesels. Here is an extract from the company's presentation about the effect of traffic delays on operating the battery buses:

"75% of our buses are delayed at the terminus

23% of all buses suffering a delay higher than 5 minutes

For those buses: no effective charging time is available anymore 

Charging will take place at the next terminus 

If the traffic situation at the next terminus is not improved, the control center has to bring diesel buses into operation 

The specific electrobus has to be charged for the next 20 minutes."

So what we are talking about is the need for extra back up buses so that you can maintain the timetable. which of course increases capital and operating costs.

My attitude is that battery buses can be good at least for certain applications. But at the current stage of battery and charging technology I doubt that they are suitable yet for the heaviest routes. And there's life in the old trolleybus yet:-).

[Doppelkupplung]

2 hours ago, martin607 said:

This is one of the potential problems with battery electric buses in practical service and why it is important for Translink to gain real life service experience. I have seen a presentation about the trial battery electric route 133 in Cologne, Germany. If the battery buses get delayed in traffic they eventually fall behind on their charging and have to be substituted by diesels.

Also factor in things like weather, road conditions, passenger load, AC etc. That all has a very significant impact on battery life. There needs to be a significant amount of breathing room between the distance of the route and the range of the bus. 

On 4/12/2018 at 2:51 PM, Express691 said:

One problem I have is if youre running (-10) and you have to turn and burn. Will they force drivers to take breaks and cut into service? I'm sure TransLink will look into this on a schedulers perspective.

That's one concern I have too regarding e buses. I fear that schedules would be padded quite a bit at terminuses, or along the route, which could have a detrimental effect on frequency, because its not like companies are buying e-buses in massive numbers right now so they can just call one in to fill in on a trip. 

[Express691]

2 hours ago, Doppelkupplung said:

Also factor in things like weather, road conditions, passenger load, AC etc. That all has a very significant impact on battery life. There needs to be a significant amount of breathing room between the distance of the route and the range of the bus. 

That's one concern I have too regarding e buses. I fear that schedules would be padded quite a bit at terminuses, or along the route, which could have a detrimental effect on frequency, because its not like companies are buying e-buses in massive numbers right now so they can just call one in to fill in on a trip. 

1) Ratio of route length to range might also be a factor. 100 is around 15 kilometers while the batteries have around 30km of range.

2) At least for what I think, they may or may not use a custom paddle (potentially do runs that are not on the print schedule) and run them off schedule until they determine how long the buses will be needing for a round trip.

3) From the basis of how risky it is for the bus to run out of battery, I think it might be a case for them to move the 100 back to VTC.

4) Perhaps 100 was chosen due to its proximity to 2 transit centers. Does anyone here think that a different route should have been chosen? I feel that the 100 is a bit risky as a trial route given how it's prone to delays (mainly due to Knight Street and areas around Marine Gateway). I personally it's less risky for the battery performance when you have a shorter route compared to shorter distance between yards. Perhaps a friend of mine can give light to this.

[8010]

1 hour ago, Express691 said:

Perhaps 100 was chosen due to its proximity to 2 transit centers. Does anyone here think that a different route should have been chosen? I feel that the 100 is a bit risky as a trial route given how it's prone to delays (mainly due to Knight Street and areas around Marine Gateway). I personally it's less risky for the battery performance when you have a shorter route compared to shorter distance between yards. Perhaps a friend of mine can give light to this.

When it comes to Vancouver routes there are really no options for shorter conventiontional routes. Perhaps the 29 but that's not even a VTC route and there's no nearby transit centre in case something goes wrong. In my opinion a trial like this should've been done on Surrey routes like the 323, 324, and 325 as those routes are a bit shorter compared to the 100 and they can be tested on multiple routes instead of just one, and STC is pretty close by should something go wrong.

[RZ350]

Of course, when the City Of Vancouver is paying a part of the bill, they're not going to want the project in Surrey. That would not boost Mayor Moonbeams reputation.....

[martin607]

On ‎12‎/‎04‎/‎2018 at 11:15 PM, Brando737 said:

In the video, it was mentioned that they can increase the charging speed if needed if the bus is running late.  

Yes I heard that. The woman from the research organisation said that they could ramp up the power to 1,000 kW! That's very high power and current which will require heavy duty insulation etc.  and be expensive. If I was the electric utility I would not be happy to have to supply a connection to the grid to give short bursts of very high power e.g. 2 minutes of 1,000 kW only 4 or 5 times per hour. Or rather I would charge a lot of money for the installed capacity.

The alternative system of  battery bus has overnight charging. This has drawbacks too, but one of its advantages is that it provides a steady load of cheap off-peak electricity. 

7 hours ago, Doppelkupplung said:

That's one concern I have too regarding e buses. I fear that schedules would be padded quite a bit at terminuses, or along the route, which could have a detrimental effect on frequency, because its not like companies are buying e-buses in massive numbers right now so they can just call one in to fill in on a trip. 

As I said in my post above about the trials in Cologne, they call out reserve diesel buses to cover the e-buses that have run out of juice.  So it's expensive. Or, as you say, frequency or schedule adherence goes out of the window to allow those 10 minute recharges.

In other cities in Europe you can see proposals to replace say 20 normal buses with say 25  battery buses. That would be expensive both in terms of capital purchases and in drivers wages when you need to send out 25% more buses to maintain the schedule.

[8010]

8 hours ago, RZ350 said:

Of course, when the City Of Vancouver is paying a part of the bill, they're not going to want the project in Surrey. That would not boost Mayor Moonbeams reputation.....

That's so true, although Mayor Moonbeam isn't running for mayor again so he shouldn't have to worry about his reputation. His only accomplishment as mayor is reducing congestion... by congesting our roads with bike lanes. Although if the E-buses were in Surrey it would boost Hepner's reputation, who is also not running for mayor again (I don't know the insult name people have given her).

[Doppelkupplung]

5 hours ago, martin607 said:

As I said in my post above about the trials in Cologne, they call out reserve diesel buses to cover the e-buses that have run out of juice.  So it's expensive. Or, as you say, frequency or schedule adherence goes out of the window to allow those 10 minute recharges.

In other cities in Europe you can see proposals to replace say 20 normal buses with say 25  battery buses. That would be expensive both in terms of capital purchases and in drivers wages when you need to send out 25% more buses to maintain the schedule.

And that's exactly my point. When (God save us) all buses have gone electric, this will unfortunately be major issue for future electrified fleets when there are no diesel or hyb workhorses to fill in. Because its not like agencies are buying e buses in the hundreds right now (Shenzhen doesn't count). 

And as you said, e buses are still very very expensive. In fact, I'm curious how much that XE60 is. I'm willing to bet over a million. Call it 1.1. 

[8010]

2 minutes ago, Doppelkupplung said:

And as you said, e buses are still very very expensive. In fact, I'm curious how much that XE60 is. I'm willing to bet over a million. Call it 1.1. 

I thought one XE40 was about $1 million.

[MAX BRT]

16 minutes ago, 8010 said:

I thought one XE40 was about $1 million.

Cost has come down quickly. It is presumably about $600,000 to $700,000 USD for one electric 40 footer currently and falling all the time. It is expected to continue to fall as these buses are mass produced and lithium miners ramp up production.

[Bus_Medic]

Thats 882 000$ in Canuckistan.

[martin607]

33 minutes ago, Doppelkupplung said:

 When (God save us) all buses have gone electric, this will unfortunately be major issue for future electrified fleets when there are no diesel or hyb workhorses to fill in.

Well of course the technology can improve over time. But at the moment the battery bus technology is not ready for heavy duty routes. Maybe for suburban routes with say a 15 or 20 minute headway and plenty of recover time allowed.

Of course we already have electric buses that don't need 10 minute charging breaks - they are called trolleybuses! The latest development for trolleybuses is called "In Motion Charging" where you have batteries giving say 20 or 30km range. The trolleybus runs under wires 50% of the time and recharges as it drives, then it can do an additional 20 km or whatever away from the wires. Imagine you could electrify routes like the 41 or B95 beyond the existing wires to UBC or SFU respectively.