2018/2019 Electric Bus Project

[Community Shuttle]

12 hours ago, 9924 said:

Of course they're still gonna build a product as long as there's still a demand for it.  But that demand will diminish, and be replaced with a newer technology.

Yes, outdated.  There is a newer and better technology being developed and tested that will provide a more flexible and efficient alternative.

Are there cons with battery buses?  Of course there are, but give it 20 years (probably even less, Vancouver's timeline is what, 10 years left for the trolley?) and those cons will be fewer and smaller making a battery powered bus more cost effective than a trolley network.

 

Right, it's just that we have to wait for the technology to get there, wherever "there" is.

[9924]

1 hour ago, Community Shuttle said:

Right, it's just that we have to wait for the technology to get there, wherever "there" is.

The technology is there, now it's being improved.

[martin607]

On 7/25/2019 at 1:30 PM, 9924 said:

Of course they're still gonna build a product as long as there's still a demand for it.  But that demand will diminish, and be replaced with a newer technology.

Yes, outdated.  There is a newer and better technology being developed and tested that will provide a more flexible and efficient alternative.

Are there cons with battery buses?  Of course there are, but give it 20 years (probably even less, Vancouver's timeline is what, 10 years left for the trolley?) and those cons will be fewer and smaller making a battery powered bus more cost effective than a trolley network.

 

You have ignored the objective facts that I provided and just use subjective terms like "outdated" and "better". Mainline railways, metros, electric streetcars, even ICE buses have been in use longer that trolleybuses. So they are "outdated" too? The thing is, over the decades all these vehicle systems have been updated with the most modern technology. It's the same with trolleybuses.

Ironically, the latest battery buses have the same equipment as the latest trolleybuses, but are saddled with very heavy batteries. Meanwhile  trolleybuses have been reinvented by adding smaller batteries and In Motion Charging. In some countries they are marketed as "electric buses with In Motion Charging".

All the detailed arguments are probably best put into a separate thread. For the moment I'll just add that there's no guarantee that battery buses will be any cheaper overall.

To be fair, I shall be fascinated to see the trials in action when I visit this autumn.

Do we know for sure that the trials  will begin with the September sheet?

[Dane]

About every ninety days there is someone that grossly over dramatically says TransLink is trying to get rid of the trolley system. To make this past as per CPTDB traditions it should be made concurrently to a multi-million dollar announcement about investing in the trolley system. 

 

Then someone, often me, will say there's a good chance technology will allow serious consideration to removal of the trolley system in a decade or so, but that it isn't a done deal. 

 

Then someone needs to talk about how change is bad. 

 

And repeat. 

 

There, we are done for the summer

[MCW Metrobus]

On 7/25/2019 at 5:30 AM, 9924 said:

Are there cons with battery buses?  Of course there are, but give it 20 years (probably even less, Vancouver's timeline is what, 10 years left for the trolley?) and those cons will be fewer and smaller making a battery powered bus more cost effective than a trolley network.

 

Perhaps sooner. I believe that the current trolley fleet will be up for renewal again in 2025. That's from what I recall when the order was placed.

[8010]

7 minutes ago, MCW Metrobus said:

Perhaps sooner. I believe that the current trolley fleet will be up for renewal again in 2025. That's from what I recall when the order was placed.

I heard from maintenance that they're due for replacement starting in 2024.

Do XT40s and XT60s have in-motion charging built-in?

[MCW Metrobus]

Just now, 8010 said:

I heard from maintenance that they're due for replacement starting in 2024.

Close enough. That would give them a lifespan of approximately 18 years, since the majority of the fleet was delivered in late 2006 through 2007.

[8010]

19303 and 19304 were testing in Marpole again today.

[martin607]

22 hours ago, 8010 said:

I heard from maintenance that they're due for replacement starting in 2024.

Do XT40s and XT60s have in-motion charging built-in?

I guess systems would have to specify their requirements, but it is hard to imagine that any system would specify trolleybuses without any batteries and In Motion Charging. Both the Seattle and San Francisco XT40s and XT60s have IMC but I don't think the battery range is particularly long -maybe 10km. And as far as I know both cities use the batteries for detours only rather than for extending routes permanently without building wiring. Two examples from San Francisco: route 6 was affected by sewer works so for a few months it was operated exclusively by XT40s that did a detour from the roadworks; and currently route 30 has returned to its historic routing south of Union Square but is using battery power on the restored alignment until the overhead wiring is restored.

[FlyingPig]

19303 testing on Highway 1 this afternoon, near the Port Mann Bridge. Seen from the 555.

The electric bus is much slower, maybe 2/3 of the 555's speed.

[Phillip]

5 hours ago, FlyingPig said:

19303 testing on Highway 1 this afternoon, near the Port Mann Bridge. Seen from the 555.

The electric bus is much slower, maybe 2/3 of the 555's speed.

The electric bus was at full power acceleration and still slower?

[8010]

20 hours ago, FlyingPig said:

19303 testing on Highway 1 this afternoon, near the Port Mann Bridge. Seen from the 555.

The electric bus is much slower, maybe 2/3 of the 555's speed.

Same bus was testing on Highway 99 today.

[dover5949]

5 hours ago, 8010 said:

Same bus was testing on Highway 99 today.

Spotted it going WB Hwy 91 & Knight St around 135pm keeping up with the flow of traffic this afternoon

[9924]

On 7/26/2019 at 8:40 AM, martin607 said:

You have ignored the objective facts that I provided and just use subjective terms like "outdated" and "better". Mainline railways, metros, electric streetcars, even ICE buses have been in use longer that trolleybuses. So they are "outdated" too? The thing is, over the decades all these vehicle systems have been updated with the most modern technology. It's the same with trolleybuses.

Ironically, the latest battery buses have the same equipment as the latest trolleybuses, but are saddled with very heavy batteries. Meanwhile  trolleybuses have been reinvented by adding smaller batteries and In Motion Charging. In some countries they are marketed as "electric buses with In Motion Charging".

All the detailed arguments are probably best put into a separate thread. For the moment I'll just add that there's no guarantee that battery buses will be any cheaper overall.

To be fair, I shall be fascinated to see the trials in action when I visit this autumn.

Do we know for sure that the trials  will begin with the September sheet?

I ignored nothing.  Trolley's are outdated with the advent of newer and improved alternatives that provide the same "greenness".

Trolleys are bound to their wires, plain and simple.  Any detours, reroutes have to be either carefully planned or substituted with a non-trolley bus. So you know need a fleet of buses to support your trolley buses.  The newer EV buses don't need that additional support, they provide the same flexibility as a diesel bus while offering the same environmental advantages of trolleys.

On 7/31/2019 at 10:19 PM, Phillip said:

The electric bus was at full power acceleration and still slower?

Unless you were the one driving it, you won't know.

[martin607]

26 minutes ago, 9924 said:

I ignored nothing.  Trolley's are outdated with the advent of newer and improved alternatives that provide the same "greenness".

Trolleys are bound to their wires, plain and simple.  Any detours, reroutes have to be either carefully planned or substituted with a non-trolley bus. So you know need a fleet of buses to support your trolley buses.  The newer EV buses don't need that additional support, they provide the same flexibility as a diesel bus while offering the same environmental advantages of trolleys.

Unless you were the one driving it, you won't know.

Lots of subjective adjectives here e.g. "outdated", "improved" that aren't supported by facts. Battery buses have many drawbacks such as limited range, lower productivity because of charging downtime, reduced carrying capacity and the need for at least 20% larger fleets. This is not an improvement.

Trolleybuses are NOT "bound to their wires, pure and simple". You have totally ignored the points made by others including myself about battery-trolleybuses with In Motion Charging (IMC). Virtually all trolleybuses made now have IMC and typically a 20km off-wire range. So they cope perfectly well with detours etc. without any special planning or any additional back-up fleet. 

[9924]

7 minutes ago, martin607 said:

Virtually all trolleybuses made now have IMC and typically a 20km off-wire range. So they cope perfectly well with detours etc. without any special planning or any additional back-up fleet. 

Minor detours and reroutes.

Cities aren't exactly lining up and building new trolley systems or even expanding their's.

[martin607]

1 minute ago, 9924 said:

Minor detours and reroutes.

Cities aren't exactly lining up and building new trolley systems or even expanding their's.

20 km off-wire capability is not just for "minor detours". The point about In Motion Charging is that the bus is recharging under the wires so that the batteries are topped up for the next time that the detour has to be made. Each time the detour section begins, the bus has been recharged to a full 20km range.

Maybe we should take this debate to another thread and leave this one for those who want to talk about the specific project. And to be clear, I am not opposed at all to battery buses. I will ride the trial buses with interest. I am just opposed to the idea that they are the only solution to electrification.

The trial will be very good for providing real data, rather than manufacturers claims.

[buizelbus]

42 minutes ago, 9924 said:

Minor detours and reroutes.

Cities aren't exactly lining up and building new trolley systems or even expanding their's.

20km can extend a 41 To Crown to UBC and back. I wouldn't call that a minor detour.

[9924]

17 minutes ago, buizelbus said:

20km can extend a 41 To Crown to UBC and back. I wouldn't call that a minor detour.

On paper yes, in the real world no. 

[jmward]

2 hours ago, 9924 said:

On paper yes, in the real world no. 

Why do you say that? The trip seems to be about 6 km each way (crown to ubc loop via wesbrook village), so that's 12/20 km range both ways. Surely that's a wide enough margin of error - and even if it isn't, for whatever reason, there are the 14 9 and 4 routes at ubc. Busses could interline with these routes, bringing the gap down to 6 km each time.

I don't see how you can dismiss using IMC to bring the 41 to ubc as impossible or impractical.

Sure, something like this isn't currently implemented in Vancouver, but neither are battery busses. Both technologies are new to the area and would need development, but exist elsewhere.

[8010]

4 hours ago, 9924 said:

I ignored nothing.  Trolley's are outdated with the advent of newer and improved alternatives that provide the same "greenness".

Not this again...

[9924]

2 hours ago, jmward said:

Why do you say that? The trip seems to be about 6 km each way (crown to ubc loop via wesbrook village), so that's 12/20 km range both ways. Surely that's a wide enough margin of error - and even if it isn't, for whatever reason, there are the 14 9 and 4 routes at ubc. Busses could interline with these routes, bringing the gap down to 6 km each time.

I don't see how you can dismiss using IMC to bring the 41 to ubc as impossible or impractical.

Sure, something like this isn't currently implemented in Vancouver, but neither are battery busses. Both technologies are new to the area and would need development, but exist elsewhere.

Would you drive your car with only 20kms if range?

 

2 hours ago, 8010 said:

Not this again...

Do you have an issue with “this”?

[8010]

14 minutes ago, 9924 said:

Would you drive your car with only 20kms if range?

No, I'd take the bus with unlimited range for 85% of the trip and the remaining 6km off-wire with IMC that has a longer lifespan and better hill-climbing capabilities.

[9924]

16 minutes ago, 8010 said:

No, I'd take the bus with unlimited range for 85% of the trip and the remaining 6km off-wire with IMC that has a longer lifespan and better hill-climbing capabilities.

Funny thing about batteries, they consume energy even when they’re not driving. So even if you sit and not move, your power decreases. Not to mention with many current EPUs, the batteries don’t run the air compressor so you only have limited brake applications. If the battery starts running the air compressor, you loose range. 

 

Sure you can build trolley buses with longer battery range but there is zero point when you can get the same technology with a vehicle that doesn’t rely on hundreds of KMs of wire that needs to be maintained, is prone to icing, windstorms, branches, and various occurrences of damage. 

Trolley is outdated, there’s a better technology on the market. 

[Firebrand]

6 hours ago, 9924 said:

Sure you can build trolley buses with longer battery range but there is zero point when you can get the same technology with a vehicle that doesn’t rely on hundreds of KMs of wire that needs to be maintained, is prone to icing, windstorms, branches, and various occurrences of damage. 

Trolley is outdated, there’s a better technology on the market. 

Zurich and Prague (the latter of which is even reviving its old trolleybus network) will have to disagree with you on that part, which seem to be working fine with their trolleys with IMC. This is just pandering for battery buses at this point.