TTC Delays and Disruptions

[81-717]

Well if the crime rate on the TTC (or the city in general) has always been about the same as it is today, why would the media publicize it any less (say, 5, 10, 15 years ago) than they do now? Presumably they've always wanted all the "clicks" they can get. From the above graph I can see that it peaked in 2017, but I wonder what the data will show for 2021 and 2022.

[T3G]

Who's saying they publicized it less in the past?

I seem to recall the possibility of a savage act of violence occurring on the TTC has always been present. Have a look back through the TTC in the news thread or old newspaper archives. There seems to be more discourse around these incidents now because platforms like Twitter let any jackoff with an internet connection voice their empty, insipid thoughts and gain a following in doing so. But where is the actual evidence suggesting the rate of violent crimes is higher on the TTC than it was pre-pandemic? I've seen a lot of highly subjective, uninformed opinions suggesting such but nothing even remotely resembling hard facts.

[81-717]

1 hour ago, T3G said:

Who's saying they publicized it less in the past?

I say this because in all my time being here & riding the TTC I've never seen reports of such things happening on a nearly weekly if not daily basis (let alone come close to witnessing/experiencing something like that in person) until the last few years. And I don't just mean anyone with a twitter account, but actual news articles (although from what I can tell most people here don't care too much for those either).

I also see no reason to distrust those who have lived in this city long before me, and said it themselves that they "have never seen the TTC be as dangerous to be on".

[TransitMotorcoach]

7 hours ago, Bus_Medic said:

 

495 dead in 2021 only, Toronto alone, Opioids alone.

https://www.toronto.ca/wp-content/uploads/2020/12/8d4b-TOIS-Coroner-Data_Final.pdf

I shouldn’t need to remind you that the Violent crime death statistics for Toronto don’t even touch that figure. 
 

Try again.

 

If they have no willpower to help themselves, and keep falling back into the same cycle, as harsh and cold as it sounds, it is survival of the fittest. 

 

When they say "don't do drugs kids" ,  there is a very good reason why.

[Bus_Medic]

1 minute ago, TransitMotorcoach said:

If they have no willpower to help themselves, and keep falling back into the same cycle, as harsh and cold as it sounds, it is survival of the fittest. 

 

“May the odds forever be in your favour.”

[2044]

21 minutes ago, TransitMotorcoach said:

When they say "don't do drugs kids" ,  there is a very good reason why.

Yeah I’m sure “just say no” really helped those guys who became addicted to opioids after recovering from serious injury

[TransitMotorcoach]

1 minute ago, 2044 said:

Yeah I’m sure “just say no” really helped helped guys who became addicted to opioids after recovering from serious injury

I myself had major surgery before, and I never became addicted to opioids. It is called doing actual research of the prescribed medication, side effects, and risks prior to taking it. I have enough common sense not to automatically believe what a doctor would say (A LOT of them are VERY CORRUPT and get KICKBACKS from pharmaceutical companies that produce these very addictive meds), and actually get a second opinion to have a full understanding of what I was given a prescription for.

 

As the saying goes, common sense ain't common....

[Bus_Medic]

I had my right hip replaced October 14th. For the first 2 weeks following, I was prescribed Oxycodone. Not a decision I took lightly knowing what a slippery slope it can be, and it’s certainly not advertised in the Purdue sales literature.

The only reason any of us know to be wary around them are the cautionary tales of ruined lives from others that went before-a decade ago. You’re not special, only hubristic.

You’re not inherently superior, and those that fall into the trap aren’t idiots either. 

As the saying goes, “pride goeth before destruction, a haughty spirit before a fall.”

[T3G]

1 hour ago, 81-717 said:

I say this because in all my time being here & riding the TTC I've never seen reports of such things happening on a nearly weekly if not daily basis (let alone come close to witnessing/experiencing something like that in person) until the last few years. And I don't just mean anyone with a twitter account, but actual news articles (although from what I can tell most people here don't care too much for those either).

What things are happening on a weekly/daily basis? Two high profile incidents occur to me from this year: the subway pusher in April, and the stabbing which has provoked the present discussion.

Lots of other incidents have happened this year and haven't gathered nearly as much attention. These have been happening on the TTC since time immemorial. Seriously, have a look through actual archival sources. Assaults, fights, sketchy people being generally sketchy have been part and parcel of the TTC experience for decades. That's nice for you that you haven't experienced anything up until this point, but that is a singular, anecdotal experience, and does not represent the totality of changing crime rates in the city.

1 hour ago, 81-717 said:

I also see no reason to distrust those who have lived in this city long before me, and said it themselves that they "have never seen the TTC be as dangerous to be on".

Once again, the anecdotal experience of a single individual does not constitute a data point. Human memory is notoriously fickle, and can lead a person to romanticizing or overdramaticizing something which ought not to have been. Then there is the possibility that a person is just straight up wrong: on a recent Facebook post with some vintage New York subway photos, some old guy commented that in his youth (read: the 70s) they were able to get out at subway stations, take pictures, mill around the neighbourhoods and grab food during their railfanning trips, and that you couldn't do that nowadays because "these days the subway is too dangerous". Now, of course, anyone who has read even the slightest bit of New York subway history even badly would realize that this is of course bunk of the highest order, but this person said themselves "these days the subway is too dangerous", so it must be true, right?

NB: I am not arguing whether the city has gotten more dangerous or not. There is every possibility that it has, just as there is every possibility that it hasn't, and I do not have data on hand to accurately gauge where we're at as a city. But so far in this discussion, there has not been a modicum of evidence presented to support the assertion that it has, just emotional hot takes and anecdotes. If there has been a marked increase in the dangerousness of the city, there should be some evidence to support it, and there has been none of it posted in this thread. If this forum concerned itself less with emotions and more with indisputable facts, maybe it'd be easier to read.

[Bus_Medic]

5 minutes ago, T3G said:

What things are happening on a weekly/daily basis? Two high profile incidents occur to me from this year: the subway pusher in April, and the stabbing which has provoked the present discussion.

Lots of other incidents have happened this year and haven't gathered nearly as much attention. These have been happening on the TTC since time immemorial. Seriously, have a look through actual archival sources. Assaults, fights, sketchy people being generally sketchy have been part and parcel of the TTC experience for decades. That's nice for you that you haven't experienced anything up until this point, but that is a singular, anecdotal experience, and does not represent the totality of changing crime rates in the city.

Once again, the anecdotal experience of a single individual does not constitute a data point. Human memory is notoriously fickle, and can lead a person to romanticizing or overdramaticizing something which ought not to have been. Then there is the possibility that a person is just straight up wrong: on a recent Facebook post with some vintage New York subway photos, some old guy commented that in his youth (read: the 70s) they were able to get out at subway stations, take pictures, mill around the neighbourhoods and grab food during their railfanning trips, and that you couldn't do that nowadays because "these days the subway is too dangerous". Now, of course, anyone who has read even the slightest bit of New York subway history even badly would realize that this is of course bunk of the highest order, but this person said themselves "these days the subway is too dangerous", so it must be true, right?

NB: I am not arguing whether the city has gotten more dangerous or not. There is every possibility that it has, just as there is every possibility that it hasn't, and I do not have data on hand to accurately gauge where we're at as a city. But so far in this discussion, there has not been a modicum of evidence presented to support the assertion that it has, just emotional hot takes and anecdotes. If there has been a marked increase in the dangerousness of the city, there should be some evidence to support it, and there has been none of it posted in this thread. If this forum concerned itself less with emotions and more with indisputable facts, maybe it'd be easier to read.

…There was also the immolation incident at Kipling….
 

My point being one can not simply enforce, arrest, prosecute or incarcerate their way out of this.

The war on drugs is over. The drugs won. Time for a different angle.

[Orion VI]

Don't forget about suicides that aren't reported on regularly, especially one happening recently at Davisville. Unfortunately there isn't a lot that can be done about issues like these.

If you monitor the TTC control radio frequently, you'll know incidents that severely affect the system happen almost daily, and have been for a while. That kind of thing happens when you live in a city the size of Toronto.

[81-717]

3 hours ago, T3G said:

What things are happening on a weekly/daily basis?

Most of the time it's just a "security incident" or "police investigation", without further elaboration.

3 hours ago, Bus_Medic said:

…There was also the immolation incident at Kipling….

Yes, that one had to be the worst one 

3 hours ago, Orion VI said:

Don't forget about suicides that aren't reported on regularly, especially one happening recently at Davisville. Unfortunately there isn't a lot that can be done about issues like these.

Suicides are tragic, yes, but are not a direct threat to public safety beyond causing service disruptions. Although I suppose causing mental trauma to witnesses can also be considered a threat to public safety, but don't want to debate whether this mental trauma is comparable to the physical suffering of those who actually ended their life or were murdered.

[Orion VI]

1 hour ago, 81-717 said:

 

Suicides are tragic, yes, but are not a direct threat to public safety beyond causing service disruptions. Although I suppose causing mental trauma to witnesses can also be considered a threat to public safety, but don't want to debate on whether the mental trauma is worse than the physical suffering of those who actually ended their life or were murdered.

Not just that, but unfortunately copycat suicides (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copycat_suicide) are a thing, and not reporting on incidents on public media channels is a step towards dampening that effect, which is why you almost never hear about them. IIRC, the TTC didn't post this information (statistics about suicides on the TTC) for a while until they had to, for this very reason.

The most the TTC will say publicly these days is an "injury on track level".

[81-717]

39 minutes ago, Orion VI said:

Not just that, but unfortunately copycat suicides (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copycat_suicide) are a thing, and not reporting on incidents on public media channels is a step towards dampening that effect, which is why you almost never hear about them. IIRC, the TTC didn't post this information (statistics about suicides on the TTC) for a while until they had to, for this very reason.

The most the TTC will say publicly these days is an "injury on track level".

Unfortunately copycat homicides are also a thing (arguably far more dangerous), because the extensive media coverage of such cases is often seen as a way to gain notoriety. Makes you wonder how many of those incidents on the TTC are copycats of each other...

[MK78]

I actually wish the TTC would publish the stats, and post the numbers of how many people jump and do not succeed right at the beginning of the platform where they sometimes have the suicide hotline posters.

I've been listening to the TTC radio for 12+ years, and there are quite a bit of "rescues" as opposed to "recoveries", meaning that the person did not die, at least not at the point of impact and were taken to hospital.

If there was messaging out there that this is not a guaranteed success and they can be crippled for life, maybe some would think twice.

 

[Ed T.]

14 hours ago, 81-717 said:

Well if the crime rate on the TTC (or the city in general) has always been about the same as it is today, why would the media publicize it any less (say, 5, 10, 15 years ago) than they do now? Presumably they've always wanted all the "clicks" they can get. From the above graph I can see that it peaked in 2017, but I wonder what the data will show for 2021 and 2022.

Boy, that's a good question. Here's an idea! You could investigate it!

First, you could check whether your premise is correct. You could check something like Crime in Toronto - Wikipedia.

I would prefer to find something from Statistics Canada that shows rates over the last fifty or sixty years, but I am not interested enough myself to do that digging. I'm in Montréal and am about to go out on the mean streets!

You might also consider that simple number of murders is very misleading if the population is changing, for example increasing. Could that possibly apply to Toronto and the GTA? Hmm, I wonder. Of course, the media won't worry about "major crime rate per 100,000 population" or anything--too complicated!

As far as "why would the media publicize it"? there may be something about 'mainstream' media struggling against the attention-getting garbage stream on InstaBookwer by spewing their own attention-getting garbage stream. Hey, I particularly liked this one: Oakville teacher famous for huge prosthetic breasts went skydiving with a porn star (blogto.com)

And now I've had to click on it. Eww! Going to wash my hands now.

[Someguy3071]

On 12/9/2022 at 9:30 AM, Ed T. said:

Correlation is not causation, you know.

Perhaps there are one or more root causes. Safe injection sites may be another fallout of the root causes, just like an epidemic of overdose deaths and homeless and disturbed people on the streets--and in the TTC.

Can you point to a jurisdiction anywhere in the world that actually does this? Do they do this with anyone caught DUI, or rowdy drunk at the local pub?

And as for anyone saying "Hey, they've opened safe injection sites, I haven't been into drugs, but I'm totally going to get hooked on heroin now! Yay!", I don't think so. As I said, correlation is not causation.

One of the goals of safe injection sites is precisely to get people to shoot up under supervision, not on some random street corner or alcove in a TTC station.

Watch this and tell me how "safe injection" sites are a good idea. 

 

[Ed T.]

I don't care to watch YouTube.

I was going to post more, but I think this xkcd teaches wisdom, and I will accept it.

xkcd: Duty Calls

[Someguy3071]

So being posted on YouTube is the only reason you won't watch something that is informative and pretty eye opening? 

[Ed T.]

Just now, Someguy3071 said:

So being posted on YouTube is the only reason you won't watch something that is informative and pretty eye opening? 

Because obvious clickbait is obvious clickbait. I expect that video is not exactly careful peer-reviewed research. I expect it to be hysteric bullshit. Life is too short for that.

Tell you what, I'll watch the video if you get and at least skim Piketty's book. Then we can add in the housing bubble in Canada, and the role of social media in polarizing debate, and discuss if safe injection sites really are causing global inequality, housing insecurity, revanchist fascism, global warming, and the Maple Leafs always blowing it in the playoffs. We could do that over a beer!

 

 

[Someguy3071]

Sure I'll take a look. Doesn't hurt to read a little. 

And btw not everything needs to be peer reviewed. People's experiences count for something too. 

[Bus_Medic]

1 hour ago, Someguy3071 said:

Watch this and tell me how "safe injection" sites are a good idea. 

 

Sorry dude but five seconds of background checking his channel’s content is all it takes for anyone with one iota of critical thinking skill to see the bias.

He’s free to post what he wants within his charter rights, but don’t think for a instant that this is anything but an editorial.

2044 mentioned it before, and it bears repeating as many times as necessary. Even if you despise addicts, the advantages of having medically qualified people on site with clean needles and naloxone at the ready is an enormous burden lifted off the already stressed emergency services, who would otherwise be tied up on overdose easter egg hunts. 
 

Having paramedics and ambulances actually free directly benefits all of us.

[Someguy3071]

What bias is that? That he has a different opinion or outlook on something? We don't all see things the same, as is evident here. I found that video interesting and I personally do not support providing drugs to addicts. 

[Bus_Medic]

39 minutes ago, Someguy3071 said:

What bias is that? That he has a different opinion or outlook on something? We don't all see things the same, as is evident here. I found that video interesting and I personally do not support providing drugs to addicts. 

Don’t let me get in the way of your good time then.

For the record, safe injection sites don’t need to supply the opioid to to be beneficial. Qualified supervision, clean needles and narcan/naloxone on premises can save lives all on their own.  It’s not a zero sum game.

[T3G]

If people do drugs, I would rather they do it under the supervision of a qualified professional rather than to find them passed out in an alleyway or stairwell.