TTC Delays and Disruptions

[MK78]

Ouch, damn... flippin hackers... interesting how drivers are refusing work. i mean the bus can still drive, and i'm sure vast majority have a cellphone they could use for an emergency. But who knows how that union stuff works.

[Orion VI]

8 minutes ago, MK78 said:

Ouch, damn... flippin hackers... interesting how drivers are refusing work. i mean the bus can still drive, and i'm sure vast majority have a cellphone they could use for an emergency. But who knows how that union stuff works.

I have friends who work for major nextbus system companies, and they've been saying for quite a while that most major transit agencies have been hit by similar attacks. Unfortunately, most agencies are juicy targets: the websites need to go back online as they hold important info, and therefore being government owned, the ransom will get paid quickly. Most are upgrading their protection, but private and smaller systems should be wary for this kind of issue.

[MK78]

Curious timing with TTC's site just being reworked not even a week before. I wonder if they somehow exploited something with the new site and worked their way deeper into the network.

[Orion VI]

Whatever it is, we probably won't hear about it. Hackers are getting quite good these days, it's interesting to think about the hierarchy (if you will) of worthy ransomware targets. First come banks, hospitals, popular sites... but a transit agency? What will be next, Tim's?

[Bus_Medic]

1 hour ago, Orion VI said:

Whatever it is, we probably won't hear about it. Hackers are getting quite good these days, it's interesting to think about the hierarchy (if you will) of worthy ransomware targets. First come banks, hospitals, popular sites... but a transit agency? What will be next, Tim's?

It’s critical infrastructure, same as Toronto hydro or the water filtration plants. Definitely on the shortlist for cyberterrorism. 

As for work refusals, the TTC itself considers a functional Communication system safety critical for a vehicle to be fit for service in any other situation, by their own standards set out long ago. Ops refusing to go out are simply following the standards expected.

[MK78]

8 hours ago, Bus_Medic said:

As for work refusals, the TTC itself considers a functional Communication system safety critical for a vehicle to be fit for service in any other situation, by their own standards set out long ago. Ops refusing to go out are simply following the standards expected.

Thank you for the explanation. This morning I've been hearing transit control calling buses directly (without vision) and asking for operators cell numbers. So I guess they're still struggling thru it.

[TTC Guy]

Problems continue to effect the TTC with VISION down. I went out and did some “old school” fanning today and noticed lots of ops weren’t following their schedules, probably since the TTC doesn’t have a way of enforcing them. I was also listening to TC today and I didn’t hear one work refusal which is good. The worst part is if there’s a bus missing, nothing can get sent to replace it since nobody is able to tell a bus is missing until the bus returns to its division, once it gets back, internal communications are down so it’s an overall nightmare. Hoping everything gets back to normal before the morning rush on Monday. 

[lip]

1 hour ago, TTC Guy said:

Problems continue to effect the TTC with VISION down. I went out and did some “old school” fanning today and noticed lots of ops weren’t following their schedules, probably since the TTC doesn’t have a way of enforcing them.

Ah so it's like 501 bus service, but on a city wide scale. Ops must be having the time of their lives.

[Bus_Medic]

3 hours ago, lip said:

Ah so it's like 501 bus service, but on a city wide scale. Ops must be having the time of their lives.

Be grateful you have any service at all. They’re entirely within their rights to not even leave the garage should they so choose, while this is ongoing.

[Xtrazsteve]

7 hours ago, TTC Guy said:

Problems continue to effect the TTC with VISION down. I went out and did some “old school” fanning today and noticed lots of ops weren’t following their schedules, probably since the TTC doesn’t have a way of enforcing them. I was also listening to TC today and I didn’t hear one work refusal which is good. The worst part is if there’s a bus missing, nothing can get sent to replace it since nobody is able to tell a bus is missing until the bus returns to its division, once it gets back, internal communications are down so it’s an overall nightmare. Hoping everything gets back to normal before the morning rush on Monday. 

If VISION doesn't work, there is no schedule to display. Once they start a trip, they're blind unless they have a paper schedule with timed stops on them. They aren't suppose to use their phones either.

[lip]

4 hours ago, Bus_Medic said:

Be grateful you have any service at all. They’re entirely within their rights to not even leave the garage should they so choose, while this is ongoing.

Oh really now? I'm pretty sure if they didn't that would constitute strike action, which is illegal under current provincial law. They can try and twist it to health & safety concerns all they want, it wouldn't fly.

[T3G]

4 hours ago, lip said:

Oh really now? I'm pretty sure if they didn't that would constitute strike action, which is illegal under current provincial law. They can try and twist it to health & safety concerns all they want, it wouldn't fly.

Maybe you should actually read up on the right to refuse unsafe work before posting.

[lip]

^If ops have radio back up (similar to what many had a couple years ago when TRUMP units were being pulled) and are able to communicate with TC, then i see no issue. There's nothing which is directly causing their work to be unsafe. Indirectly sure, but is there an immediate danger here, no.

[Bus_Medic]

1. The silent panic alarm is dependent on the vision system functioning, and by the TTC’s own policy,  must pass a functionality test during the circle check for the vehicle to be fit for service.
 Non functional safety equipment is reasonable grounds for a work refusal, and would hold up under scrutiny.

2. The Tetra radios that were distributed to the streetcar network are hand held, making them illegal to use behind the wheel of a bus. And installing a dash mount base to the entire fleet is obviously impossible in only days.

3. The use of personal cellphones behind the wheel is illegal and grounds for termination by the TTC’s own policy.  Operators are under no obligation to volunteer the use of personal devices for commission business.

[T3G]

^not to mention, even if the use of personal cellphones wasn't a non-starter for all the reasons mentioned above, there are a variety of circumstances that could preclude cell phone response from being as reliable as if the VISION system had been used, including a phone without charge, possible connectivity issues in underground stations, and presumably some of the old timers don't own a personal device at all. What then? Ask a passenger if they can spare a device? It's a very unsophisticated solution to a significant problem.

Safety trumps customer service, always.

[Bus_Medic]

Pretty hard to call control or even 911 while you’re being beaten, being held hostage or strangled if you have to reach into your pocket and unlock the screen.

The whole point is to make it covert, so the situation doesn’t escalate.

[MK78]

There is radio fallback, I've been hearing it since Friday on Tetra system i'm monitoring. But there was a heck of a lot of confusion on using it Friday that I was hearing, it's like they were doing something equivalent to a "line call" on the subway, with a bunch of buses being contacted at the same time. I could see it in real time because the individual vehicle numbers are shown clearly.

[nfitz]

19 hours ago, Bus_Medic said:

Be grateful you have any service at all. They’re entirely within their rights to not even leave the garage should they so choose, while this is ongoing.

Can't they just temporarily equip them with radios? Though I suppose the question is, how many do they have in stock.

Oh, I'm late to the party. The law about handfree devices doesn't apply in an emergency. So they can use radios for that. Problem solved!

I assume after 3 days, that ATU is now aware of this - have they said anything? Doesn't seem like there's any more shortages than usual.

[MK78]

I've heard of supervisors driving around on routes looking for missing buses, lol. And I've heard today Wilson division buses filling in the east end to fill gaps, because they can't coordinate relief points without knowing where the buses are...

It's gonna be a real fustercluck tomorrow I'm sure.

[T3G]

46 minutes ago, MK78 said:

And I've heard today Wilson division buses filling in the east end to fill gaps, because they can't coordinate relief points without knowing where the buses are...

So what happens when an op ends their shift? Are they supposed to run the bus in?

[Shaun]

2 hours ago, nfitz said:

Can't they just temporarily equip them with radios? Though I suppose the question is, how many do they have in stock.

Oh, I'm late to the party. The law about handfree devices doesn't apply in an emergency. So they can use radios for that. Problem solved!

I assume after 3 days, that ATU is now aware of this - have they said anything? Doesn't seem like there's any more shortages than usual.

How many radios do you think are available?? Let's say there are 200 spares available in the pool. How do you logistically assign those to 5000+ vehicles? 

You could have managers fill in as route supervisors to pick up some of the slack. 

Maybe at the end points of the routes? 

But that's going back 20 years in time. 

[MK78]

1 hour ago, PCC Guy said:

So what happens when an op ends their shift? Are they supposed to run the bus in?

I didn't say it happens to every op/shift, but it has happened the past few days that I've heard.

[lip]

10 hours ago, Bus_Medic said:

1. The silent panic alarm is dependent on the vision system functioning, and by the TTC’s own policy,  must pass a functionality test during the circle check for the vehicle to be fit for service.
 Non functional safety equipment is reasonable grounds for a work refusal, and would hold up under scrutiny.

2. The Tetra radios that were distributed to the streetcar network are hand held, making them illegal to use behind the wheel of a bus. And installing a dash mount base to the entire fleet is obviously impossible in only days.

3. The use of personal cellphones behind the wheel is illegal and grounds for termination by the TTC’s own policy.  Operators are under no obligation to volunteer the use of personal devices for commission business.

All of these things are dealing with the TTC's own internal policies, and are automatically assuming the work the ops are doing is unsafe. If we're playing legalese/lawyer, this wouldnt fly in the courts and the province could easily argue that this constitutes strike action if there was a mass walkout of workers.

Basically it would be pitting drivers who are claiming their work is unsafe (internal policy) vs provincial law. Guess who would win that one.

Now obviously there would be various incidents to which drivers could be placed in immediate harm, and if they felt as such they could refuse their work. But just to come out and say I feel unsafe because of X, and if this was repeated hundreds of times across the entire organization on the same day well the courts would put 2 and 2 together.

[T3G]

10 minutes ago, lip said:

All of these things are dealing with the TTC's own internal policies, and are automatically assuming the work the ops are doing is unsafe. If we're playing legalese/lawyer, this wouldnt fly in the courts and the province could easily argue that this constitutes strike action if there was a mass walkout of workers.

Basically it would be pitting drivers who are claiming their work is unsafe (internal policy) vs provincial law. Guess who would win that one.

Now obviously there would be various incidents to which drivers could be placed in immediate harm, and if they felt as such they could refuse their work. But just to come out and say I feel unsafe because of X, and if this was repeated hundreds of times across the entire organization on the same day well the courts would put 2 and 2 together.

The fact that the silent panic button wouldn't work without VISION is not enough of an argument?

[lip]

9 minutes ago, PCC Guy said:

The fact that the silent panic button wouldn't work without VISION is not enough of an argument?

On a case by case basis (ie: not 1000+ employees claiming the same thing) the employer would more or less get fined if it was found they didnt provide a way for the employee to communicate that they were in an emergency *if they were in an emergency at the time they are claiming*. Rack up the fine even higher if the employer was preventing the employee from doing to.

But to say there is no panic button, therefore im not going to work because there is a *chance* of an emergency happening or because this policy says so, than no it's not enough. Laws always supersedes company policy, whether someone likes it or not it's not my business.