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MAX BRT

Electric buses by Gillig

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Looks like Gillig has electric buses on the street in Walnut Creek, California. Its the Central Contra Costa Transit Authority.

There is a cool video here: http://www.baesystems.com/en/article/zero-emission-buses-in-service-at-walnut-creek

They beat BYD in getting inductive charging (wireless) into operation!

The four buses are powered by BAE Systems’ electric propulsion and accessory systems.

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6 hours ago, MAX BRT said:

Looks like Gillig has electric buses on the street in Walnut Creek, California. Its the Central Contra Costa Transit Authority.

There is a cool video here: http://www.baesystems.com/en/article/zero-emission-buses-in-service-at-walnut-creek

They beat BYD in getting inductive charging (wireless) into operation!

same post i posted few weeks back 

 

https://countyconnection.com/about/electric-buses/

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6 hours ago, captaintrolley said:

So how well will that inductive charge pad work when it's covered with snow, ice and sand ?

Great question, methinks. But not too much snow or ice in Walnut Creek. Looks like the average low in January is 2 C--and that is the coldest month. However the charge pad company is located in Utah and they have a project at the University of Utah--where I think it does freeze regularly.

http://wave-ipt.com/projects/

I know charging in a snowstorm created some kinks that had to be worked out when Proterra first introduced their overhead fast charging (not wireless) in cold weather Massachusetts.

 

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Gillig should begin to promote its battery electric buses. It didn't this time, probably because it was a niche order. Specifically, the BEVs are Gillig Trolley Replicas for a free circulator service and not the standard Low Floor models used on commuter routes.

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8 hours ago, Transit geek said:

Gillig should begin to promote its battery electric buses. It didn't this time, probably because it was a niche order. Specifically, the BEVs are Gillig Trolley Replicas for a free circulator service and not the standard Low Floor models used on commuter routes.

Gillig Trolley Replicas are Low Floors that are made in a trolley livery. Same bus, all Gillig buses are based on same model.

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Thanks to CPTDB member Alexb320 for the following information:

(quote) The city of Gainesville will put to vote on January 3rd whether to approve the purchase of (2) fully electric Gillig 40ft buses and necessary charging equipment. I'm guessing there was a delay in getting these buses approved. I was told by an RTS employee that the buses were supposed to be delivered by the end of 2018. Depending on the production lead-time, they likely won't arrive until late 2019. An interesting note off of the proposal from Gillig, each bus (including necessary charging equipment) will cost roughly $1,093,000 per bus. All the documents can be viewed on the City Commission Meeting Agenda: https://gainesville.legistar.com/LegislationDetail.aspx?ID=3780506&GUID=E97C039A-5E0E-4EA4-A86C-DF369594D221&Options=&Search= (unquote)

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Thanks, the interesting thing is that the actual buses themselves cost $1,032,163 each, which seems quite high compared with press articles which often give a figure of around $750,000 for a battery bus. It's always good to know real world figures.

On the other hand the depot chargers - $121,205 for a double unit  - seems quite cheap.  Probably they will not have to alter their depot electricity supply to provide power for two buses. The problems would come if they wanted to have 20 BEBs. The electrical load might then be too high and they would then have to  do expensive upgrades to cope with the peak load. 

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3 hours ago, martin607 said:

Thanks, the interesting thing is that the actual buses themselves cost $1,032,163 each, which seems quite high compared with press articles which often give a figure of around $750,000 for a battery bus. It's always good to know real world figures.

On the other hand the depot chargers - $121,205 for a double unit  - seems quite cheap.  Probably they will not have to alter their depot electricity supply to provide power for two buses. The problems would come if they wanted to have 20 BEBs. The electrical load might then be too high and they would then have to  do expensive upgrades to cope with the peak load. 

Good point regarding the high price. I have seen BYD and Proterra state that they have electric buses that will cost only $750,000 USD. My guess is that the battery in this case is larger--for extended range. The battery cost is a large part of the price of an electric bus.

Its also true that the documents appear to show that the City did not negotiate with other OEMs. They had named Gillig in the grant and perhaps that gave Gillig leeway to charge more, absent a competitive bid process.

Its also likely that Gillig has to pay more for EV components, compared to major electric bus builders like BYD and Proterra who can buy in bulk.

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On 1/7/2019 at 1:44 PM, MAX BRT said:

Good point regarding the high price. I have seen BYD and Proterra state that they have electric buses that will cost only $750,000 USD. My guess is that the battery in this case is larger--for extended range. The battery cost is a large part of the price of an electric bus.

Its also true that the documents appear to show that the City did not negotiate with other OEMs. They had named Gillig in the grant and perhaps that gave Gillig leeway to charge more, absent a competitive bid process.

Its also likely that Gillig has to pay more for EV components, compared to major electric bus builders like BYD and Proterra who can buy in bulk.

In regards to the price, my first thought was that Gainesville had just spec'd an expensive bus. But the more I thought about it, I don't think that is the case. Gainesvilles newer Gilligs are pretty basic and are basically identical to the LowFloors they bought in 2007. I will say that I agree that they may have included a larger battery for better distance. Its very unlikely these buses will ever see service outside of the UF campus, so mileage isn't an issue. But buses on campus are constantly stopping/going and Florida is hot in the summer. So the A/C system may require additional power to operate right. I also will say that Gillig will likely always be more expensive than BYD.

Yes, Gainesville negotiated the contract with Gillig. One of the employees I spoke to said they have a very good relationship with Gillig and aren't interested in any other manufactures.

I will say that I am interested to see if the Gillig electric buses are lemons like BYD and Proterra. I imagine they will be better, but I'm not holding my breath.

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28 minutes ago, alexb320 said:

In regards to the price, my first thought was that Gainesville had just spec'd an expensive bus. But the more I thought about it, I don't think that is the case. Gainesvilles newer Gilligs are pretty basic and are basically identical to the LowFloors they bought in 2007. I will say that I agree that they may have included a larger battery for better distance. Its very unlikely these buses will ever see service outside of the UF campus, so mileage isn't an issue. But buses on campus are constantly stopping/going and Florida is hot in the summer. So the A/C system may require additional power to operate right. I also will say that Gillig will likely always be more expensive than BYD.

Yes, Gainesville negotiated the contract with Gillig. One of the employees I spoke to said they have a very good relationship with Gillig and aren't interested in any other manufactures.

I will say that I am interested to see if the Gillig electric buses are lemons like BYD and Proterra. I imagine they will be better, but I'm not holding my breath.

How is Gillig more expensive then BYD? For years, Gillig has been the go to bus maker for TAs with tight budgets. Plus,  BYD is foreign, so they would have to pay tariffs for those.

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3 hours ago, Chris.A said:

How is Gillig more expensive then BYD? For years, Gillig has been the go to bus maker for TAs with tight budgets. Plus,  BYD is foreign, so they would have to pay tariffs for those.

  

Perhaps because BYD has more experience building electric buses than Gillig? Perhaps this Cummins drive might be proportionally more expensive than the BYD drive? Perhaps BYD has the foreign financial backing that would allow them to offer competitive pricing?

As for BYD and tariffs... Given that I gather BYD is winning tenders which include "Buy America" requirements, I'd imagine that tariffs are not too signficant... If the bus was all Chinese components, don't think it would be meeting "Buy America" requirements. 

"The firm’s battery-electric, zero-emission buses not only meet but also exceed all current and future stated FTA “Buy America” requirements, incorporating 70%+ U.S. content."
http://en.byd.com/usa/news-posts/press-release-byd-continues-u-s-investment-with-new-5-million-warehouse-facility/

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On 1/10/2019 at 9:00 PM, M. Parsons said:

 

  

Perhaps because BYD has more experience building electric buses than Gillig? Perhaps this Cummins drive might be proportionally more expensive than the BYD drive? Perhaps BYD has the foreign financial backing that would allow them to offer competitive pricing?

As for BYD and tariffs... Given that I gather BYD is winning tenders which include "Buy America" requirements, I'd imagine that tariffs are not too signficant... If the bus was all Chinese components, don't think it would be meeting "Buy America" requirements. 

"The firm’s battery-electric, zero-emission buses not only meet but also exceed all current and future stated FTA “Buy America” requirements, incorporating 70%+ U.S. content."
http://en.byd.com/usa/news-posts/press-release-byd-continues-u-s-investment-with-new-5-million-warehouse-facility/

I agree with everything stated above. 

You also have to understand that this is new territory for Gillig. There's going to be growing pains and they cannot be as competitive right out of the gate.

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On ‎1‎/‎10‎/‎2019 at 9:57 PM, alexb320 said:

I will say that I am interested to see if the Gillig electric buses are lemons like BYD and Proterra. I imagine they will be better, but I'm not holding my breath.

Intriguing throw-away remark there. I've heard about the problems that BYD have suffered but why do you call the Proterra battery buses "lemons"? Could you give us some examples of agencies that have had bad experiences with their Proterra BEBs?

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On 1/15/2019 at 3:22 AM, martin607 said:

Intriguing throw-away remark there. I've heard about the problems that BYD have suffered but why do you call the Proterra battery buses "lemons"? Could you give us some examples of agencies that have had bad experiences with their Proterra BEBs?

This was the only article I could find with a quick search: https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/windsor/safety-issues-in-proterra-electric-buses-wanted-by-windsor-1.2604076

Seeing as the article is from 2014, it was probably one of the earliest built units.

Most other publicity about Proterra is pretty positive.

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6 hours ago, A. Wong said:

This was the only article I could find with a quick search: https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/windsor/safety-issues-in-proterra-electric-buses-wanted-by-windsor-1.2604076

Seeing as the article is from 2014, it was probably one of the earliest built units.

Most other publicity about Proterra is pretty positive.

Thanks. I don't know the technicalities but can these last few posts be copied over into the Proterra thread?

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On 1/15/2019 at 5:22 AM, martin607 said:

Intriguing throw-away remark there. I've heard about the problems that BYD have suffered but why do you call the Proterra battery buses "lemons"? Could you give us some examples of agencies that have had bad experiences with their Proterra BEBs?

Yeah, I probably should have worded that better. Its definitely not fair to put the Proterra buses on the same level as BYD. I do remember reading somewhere that Foothill Transit had issues with the transmissions on the early models, but were still pleased with how the buses performed. Of course, those were early models that were getting the kinks worked out.

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