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Kasper, Tisdale and Great Canadian Coaches appeared in the committee yesterday. All 3 are on the same page about deregulation except they want Ontario Northland and Metrolinx/Go Transit to contract out their runs. They all blame Ontario Northland and Metrolinx/Go Transit for stepping into Niagara Falls, Kitchener and Ottawa which caused Greyhound Canada to shut down service west of Sudbury since both Government entities bite into Greyhound's income with those 3 cities. Great Canadian Coaches has concerns when deregulation happens that Quebec carriers will exploit the Ontario Bus Industry to operate between Ontario and Quebec since Ontario Carriers would be at a disadvantage in obtaining pick ups rights in Quebec. Like Coach Canada, Great Canadian and Tisdale think now is not the time to deregulate the industry because of COVID-19. Great Canadian and Tisdale are calling for a similar system in the US where the Canadian Government should monitor market entry and regulate the bus industry just like the US with the US DOT and FMCSA. We shall see what Monday brings with the last committee meeting scheduled.

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It seems Deregulation is coming to reality under the Ford Government! Schedule 16 Ontario Highway Transport Board REPEAL ACT, 2020 The Schedule enacts the Ontario Highway Transport Board R

I can pretty much guarantee B.C. will not de regulate if they do, 40% of  the service as we know it today would be wiped out with No Alternatives! It happened in Alberta and their are still dozens of

I don't know - it seems they didn't put the second trip in for the Christmas season this year. Unless someone has more detailed knowledge than I do, we may have to wait until summer to see if the seco

12 hours ago, MCIBUS said:

I still say regardless of what the carriers are saying the ONT Government is intent of passing this regulation.

True, the Ford Government is going to ram this Bill into Legislation by next month.

What I find interesting is Kasper, Tisdale and Great Canadian Coaches are OMCA members and the OMCA is for deregulation.

From the OMCA News:

Quote

after 8 years and several rounds of formal and informal consultations, the Ontario Government introduced legislation to end economic regulation of the motor coach industry by repealing the Public Vehicles Act and disbanding the Ontario Highway Transport Board effective July 1, 2021.

So the OMCA is for deregulation and I would think those members would have known during the 8 years that the OMCA was trying to consult with the Ontario Government to deregulate the industry.

Now, Great Canadian Coaches and Tisdale Bus Lines suggested that the Canadian Government should regulate the Bus Industry like in the US. The Trudeau Government could upload that responsibility and I know the Conservatives would support it as long the intention is to deregulate it.

Bill 213 will pass by Christmas!

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On the OMCA, I'm not sure how many members that have, but if the majority of their members support this vs the minority members against it, I'm guessing maybe that's why there for deregulation(could be mistaken though).

 

But if their major members like Greyhound, Coach Canada, Tisdale, Great Canadian Coaches, members like that are against it, you'd think that the OMCA would be against deregulation?

 

But non the less it's going to pass.

 

On the issue of the Feds regulating the buds industry, not sure thats a good idea. They could make deregulation in all provinces, but they could also turn around and make all carries in Canada have all their coaches  wheel-chair accessible, like in the US.

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Have Tisdale or Great Canadian operated line runs recently? Tisdale sounds like they see a business opportunity operating line runs under contract and they're making that their issue now, which really has nothing to do with deregulation.

Ontario Northland stepped into the Sudbury-Ottawa run when Greyhound went to one trip/day - Greyhound cut service and ONTC stepped in, not the other way around.

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1 hour ago, Flalex72 said:

Have Tisdale or Great Canadian operated line runs recently? Tisdale sounds like they see a business opportunity operating line runs under contract and they're making that their issue now, which really has nothing to do with deregulation.

Ontario Northland stepped into the Sudbury-Ottawa run when Greyhound went to one trip/day - Greyhound cut service and ONTC stepped in, not the other way around.

Well from what I'm hearing, Ontario Northland has already gotten permission from the Quebec government to run the Ottawa-Montreal corridor. They were also planning to run Ottawa- Toronto but out of respect for Greyhound, they're waiting to see what their next move is.

The video i posted paints Ontario Northland in a different light, the CEO of Kasper Transportation feels betrayed by them.

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A few things in that vid.

1) who's to say that if the next government be it PC's or one of the others will cut service? There's no prove of that.

2) cost? The CEO even though he stated Ontario Northland loosing money because the tickets are cheap, he fails to say if they where more expensive how would those living in those isolated communities would pay for higher priced tickets if they could not afford them?

Yes its hard to run services way up north, but sometimes things need to be subsidized in order to provide services. Look at health care its subsidized by the tax payer yet it looses billions of dollars a year.

 

I'll bet if ONT was to pull out of the north Kasper would either cut services or not do those runs that are not making money(if not subsidized). The catch here is due Coide-19 services are effected everywhere not just in the bus biz, but everything. Wait til Covide-19 is done with and things pick up, then we can see how services will be then.

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Greyhound wasn't really subsidized in the end. I believe they were only subsidized in Manitoba until 2012

I don't blame Kasper for feeling betrayed here. Ontario Northland could've easily just expanded to Thunder Bay and provide all connections west with Kasper Transportation. With all the feeder traffic with Kasper, I would think they could lower their prices. 

However, Kasper was expensive for what you get though. That may be because of the limited capacity they were offering.

 

Deregulation is good for the people who take the bus. Routes between OTT-TOR, TOR- Windsor could've been so much better and cheaper if there were competition. I think Canada should just deregulate nationwide. I have no idea why BC is still regulating runs when there is close to no remote service left.

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19 hours ago, INowKnowwhY said:

Well from what I'm hearing, Ontario Northland has already gotten permission from the Quebec government to run the Ottawa-Montreal corridor. They were also planning to run Ottawa- Toronto but out of respect for Greyhound, they're waiting to see what their next move is.

The video i posted paints Ontario Northland in a different light, the CEO of Kasper Transportation feels betrayed by them.

I can't see ONTC getting into the Ottawa-Toronto run. That route is profitable and competitive, and there are multiple companies who would operate it without issue. Ottawa-Montreal is a bit of a question; it's possible ONTC would operate it as an extension of their existing Sudbuty-Ottawa service for convenience, but the demand requires much more frequent service than that. A private operator would almost certainly make a go of it there too.

 

18 hours ago, MCIBUS said:

A few things in that vid.

1) who's to say that if the next government be it PC's or one of the others will cut service? There's no prove of that.

2) cost? The CEO even though he stated Ontario Northland loosing money because the tickets are cheap, he fails to say if they where more expensive how would those living in those isolated communities would pay for higher priced tickets if they could not afford them?

Yes its hard to run services way up north, but sometimes things need to be subsidized in order to provide services. Look at health care its subsidized by the tax payer yet it looses billions of dollars a year.

 

I'll bet if ONT was to pull out of the north Kasper would either cut services or not do those runs that are not making money(if not subsidized). The catch here is due Coide-19 services are effected everywhere not just in the bus biz, but everything. Wait til Covide-19 is done with and things pick up, then we can see how services will be then.

A benefit to Northern Ontario is that it tends to have a variety of political parties across the region. The area as a whole doesn't tend to vote a a block, and while some parties have strongholds, others don't.

The flip side is we see what happens when government contracts services out. People get up in arms about the loss of union jobs and the decline of service and accountability. The question is, is this a profit making endeavor or a public good? Greyhound didn't operate buses out of the good of their hearts. There are lots of government monopolies (local transit for example) that people don't complain about because we recognize the benefits.

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That's a great video, thanks for sharing!

Greyhound Canada, Badder Bus Service, DeNure and Coach Canada all appeared during the final day of committee. Along with Tisdale Bus Lines and Great Canadian Coaches, all agree that deregulation will open Ontario to Quebec Operators and US Operators. They also agree that Safety may become subpar with price wars such as in the US. The all agree that the Government should provide subsidy instead of using Ontario Northland and Metrolinx to drive them out of business. Coach Canada said if deregulation goes through, they will cut the less profitable runs that serves 83 communities.

Next steps are either tomorrow or Wednesday, the opposition will try to create motions to amend or strike out certain schedules such as Schedule 16 and Schedule 24 which affect the bus industry. With the Ford Government having Majority status, they're gonna ram this through to third reading.

The only thing I hope with some of the bus companies concerns, I hope new legislation uses the CVOR to determine Bus Operators and request insurance information prior to issuing a CVOR, similar to the US DOT. The Ontario Government should provide subsidy to Ontario Carriers only, since Quebec Operators will try to operate the profitable routes such as Kingston - Montreal and Ottawa - Montreal and Flixbus and Ourbus will try to operate Toronto - New York and few others. Strong legislation with Uber Pool and rideshares.

Another issue as well is Quebec and US Operators would try to get pick ups at YYZ for groups travelling out of Ontario. The only thing I can suggest is add new regulation with TICO where TICO registered agencies must only charter Ontario Carriers.

Just my 2 cents but we'll see where this goes.

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31 minutes ago, Megabus Rider said:

Greyhound Canada, Badder Bus Service, DeNure and Coach Canada all appeared during the final day of committee. Along with Tisdale Bus Lines and Great Canadian Coaches, all agree that deregulation will open Ontario to Quebec Operators and US Operators. They also agree that Safety may become subpar with price wars such as in the US. The all agree that the Government should provide subsidy instead of using Ontario Northland and Metrolinx to drive them out of business. Coach Canada said if deregulation goes through, they will cut the less profitable runs that serves 83 communities.

Under a deregulated system, the non profitable routes would ideally be subsidized by the government. But if Greyhound and Coach Canada wants a regulated network, AND subsidies for their less profitable routes, I would rather Metrolink and ONTC do it. 

Plus Coach Canada and Greyhound could cut all of their unprofitable runs in Ontario anyways. They only have to give 30 days notice. If Ontario were to regulate the system, the current system doesn't cut it. Operators can cut routes at will but no one can compete. 

Besides I'm surprised Coach Canada has 83 communities in its network map. So I assume they are cutting every route except for Toronto-Montreal?

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For me personably whether its Greyhound, Coach Canada, or some other company, I look at price, convince, pick up/drop off location & schedule. I refuse to take a inter-city coach if I have to be picked up on the street. I'm not going to wait for a coach in -30 in the snow. I rather pay a higher price and either take the train or fly where I can wait in a warm train station or airport for my ride.

 

Yes most likely this will pass.

It still remain to be seen what will happen in Ontario whether present carries will or not cut runs.

It's anyone guess who will come into Ontario and start operating?

 

Assuming service is dropped in remote communities and the private sector won't do it, then probably Go Transit will do mid Ontario to southern Ontario & Ont will probably do Mid Ontario to Northern Ontario.

 

But all this just speculation.

 

Will Greyhound leave Canada?

Will operatories cut routes?

Will other operators presently outside Ontario come into Ontario and start doing charter or line runs?

 

All these are WHAT IF?

 

Basically all you can do is wait and see what happens, it's impossible to say for sure what will occur.

 

Things could turn out for things to be better?

or

Things can turn out to be worst?

 

Who's to say for sure?

 

All you can really do is wait and see.

 

As the saying goes:

 

Like the song Tom Petty goes The Waiting Is The Hardest Part?

 

 

 

 

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16 hours ago, Rapidbus said:

Under a deregulated system, the non profitable routes would ideally be subsidized by the government. But if Greyhound and Coach Canada wants a regulated network, AND subsidies for their less profitable routes, I would rather Metrolink and ONTC do it. 

Plus Coach Canada and Greyhound could cut all of their unprofitable runs in Ontario anyways. They only have to give 30 days notice. If Ontario were to regulate the system, the current system doesn't cut it. Operators can cut routes at will but no one can compete. 

Besides I'm surprised Coach Canada has 83 communities in its network map. So I assume they are cutting every route except for Toronto-Montreal?

Ya, the President told the MPP Opposition 83 communities and the MPP ask for an e-mail of those communities by name. To my knowledge including Toronto - Montreal they were doing 3 routes unless Hamilton - Kitchener has already been dropped.

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More then likely this will pass.

 

That being said, I just thought of something?

If this pass, which probably will, this isn't good news for Greyhound & Coach Canada compared to the other present operators in Ontario.

 

The thing is it more so bad news for Greyhound then Coach Canada.By that I mean Coach Canada is presently owned by some investment/financial group, where as Greyhound is still own by First Bus. That point here is if this pases it'll be harder fort First Bus to sell Greyhound.

 

Greyhound presently has routes which they own and run exclusively without any competition. If this pass, more then likely Greyhound will have competition. Which would be easier to sell a company that has exclusive rights to routes with no competition? or a company that has routes with competition? That's assuming Greyhound stay's in Canada?

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15 hours ago, MCIBUS said:

More then likely this will pass.

 

That being said, I just thought of something?

If this pass, which probably will, this isn't good news for Greyhound & Coach Canada compared to the other present operators in Ontario.

 

The thing is it more so bad news for Greyhound then Coach Canada.By that I mean Coach Canada is presently owned by some investment/financial group, where as Greyhound is still own by First Bus. That point here is if this pases it'll be harder fort First Bus to sell Greyhound.

 

Greyhound presently has routes which they own and run exclusively without any competition. If this pass, more then likely Greyhound will have competition. Which would be easier to sell a company that has exclusive rights to routes with no competition? or a company that has routes with competition? That's assuming Greyhound stay's in Canada?

Yes, it's in third reading right now and it's expected to pass this week.

Greyhound Canada and Coach Canada have stated now is not the time to pass this bill and are fearful of Quebec Companies and US Companies heavily competing on the 401 and QEW corridors. As I have stated on the Flixbus thread, the Ontario Highway Transport Board has received 3 applications for Intercity Runs, 2 are on behalf of Flixbus. Flixbus will come into Canada next year whether before or after deregulation. I am sure Ourbus will follow right after deregulation.

The sale includes First Student, First Transit and Greyhound Lines. Both First Student and First Transit do have contracts that are worth to purchase.

Greyhound has been up for sale before the pandemic and no body has even bought them over even with the PV Licenses they hold.

 

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11 hours ago, Megabus Rider said:

Yes, it's in third reading right now and it's expected to pass this week.

Greyhound Canada and Coach Canada have stated now is not the time to pass this bill and are fearful of Quebec Companies and US Companies heavily competing on the 401 and QEW corridors. As I have stated on the Flixbus thread, the Ontario Highway Transport Board has received 3 applications for Intercity Runs, 2 are on behalf of Flixbus. Flixbus will come into Canada next year whether before or after deregulation. I am sure Ourbus will follow right after deregulation.

The sale includes First Student, First Transit and Greyhound Lines. Both First Student and First Transit do have contracts that are worth to purchase.

Greyhound has been up for sale before the pandemic and no body has even bought them over even with the PV Licenses they hold.

 

Is it true that Flixbus is coming to Canada? I have never heard about that on the news. If so, which routes did Flixbus envision to serve in Canada?

I have a speculation that it will look into routes that are far away from a Via Rail line or commercial airports. Forget about Ottawa-Toronto or Montreal-Toronto, they're already frequently served by several airlines.

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9 hours ago, anyfong said:

Is it true that Flixbus is coming to Canada? I have never heard about that on the news. If so, which routes did Flixbus envision to serve in Canada?

I have a speculation that it will look into routes that are far away from a Via Rail line or commercial airports. Forget about Ottawa-Toronto or Montreal-Toronto, they're already frequently served by several airlines.

From what my friend told me, they said the Ontario Highway Transport Board received 2 applications on behalf of Flixbus to operate 2 routes, Toronto - NYC and Toronto - Boston.

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6 hours ago, Megabus Rider said:

From what my friend told me, they said the Ontario Highway Transport Board received 2 applications on behalf of Flixbus to operate 2 routes, Toronto - NYC and Toronto - Boston.

Megabus already operates from Toronto to NYC. Is there really a need for another carrier? Take a different route perhaps?

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FLIXBUS is from Europe, Germany I think but not sure? I wonder what type of coach they'll run in North America? I do believe they run VAN HOOLS,Setra's and I think Neoplans in Europe> I wonder if they'll run Setra's or Van Hools in Canada? or go with either Prevosts or MCI.s? My bet is Prevosts.

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1 hour ago, MCIBUS said:

FLIXBUS is from Europe, Germany I think but not sure? I wonder what type of coach they'll run in North America? I do believe they run VAN HOOLS,Setra's and I think Neoplans in Europe> I wonder if they'll run Setra's or Van Hools in Canada? or go with either Prevosts or MCI.s? My bet is Prevosts.

They contract with local companies so it’ll be whatever those companies have. Your mileage or kilometers in this case may vary.

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5 hours ago, Shaun said:

Megabus already operates from Toronto to NYC. Is there really a need for another carrier? Take a different route perhaps?

I am sure both Greyhound Canada and Coach Canada will oppose that route application and win, until deregulation.

2 hours ago, MCIBUS said:

FLIXBUS is from Europe, Germany I think but not sure? I wonder what type of coach they'll run in North America? I do believe they run VAN HOOLS,Setra's and I think Neoplans in Europe> I wonder if they'll run Setra's or Van Hools in Canada? or go with either Prevosts or MCI.s? My bet is Prevosts.

Here is the list of American Operators they use: https://www.flixbus.com/terms-and-conditions-of-service

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1 hour ago, ns8401 said:

They contract with local companies so it’ll be whatever those companies have. Your mileage or kilometers in this case may vary.

If that's the case, I can't comment on the GTA, but here in Ottawa there are basically 3 major operation(not including Greyhound) LeDuc, 417 Bus Lines, one more but can't recall the name at the moment. All of them either have Prevosts(various models) & MCI's(various models).

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Well, it's official, Bill 213 which contains 2 schedules to deregulate the Bus Industry has passed: https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/bills/parliament-42/session-1/bill-213/status

Just needs to get Royal Assent.

Also the Government is currently debating Bill 229 which contains a Schedule for Ontario Northland, these parts stood out:

Quote

The definition of “Minister” in the Act is changed from the Minister of Northern Development and Mines to the Minister of Transportation.

The Act is amended to add the new section 7.1, which gives the Minister the power to issue directives in writing to the Commission in respect of any matter under the Act. In addition to the Commission, the exemptions from licences set out in section 9 now also apply to any person providing passenger transportation services on behalf of the Commission.

It seems Bill 213 and Bill 229 work hand in hand with the Bus Industry. It looks like Ontario Northland will be in charge for contracting out Intercity Runs to Private Carriers.

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  • 2 weeks later...

I have a feeling Greyhound is accepting the loss.

When they restart service, they'll only be operating with 50 drivers. 20 Toronto, 15 Ottawa, 10 London and 5 Montreal.

They gave the opportunity to operators to voluntarily resign with severance and commuted value from their pension.

From what I hear, 90% of the employees has jumped off the sinking ship. Greyhound's future in Canada doesn't look so bright.

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9 hours ago, INowKnowwhY said:

I have a feeling Greyhound is accepting the loss.

When they restart service, they'll only be operating with 50 drivers. 20 Toronto, 15 Ottawa, 10 London and 5 Montreal.

They gave the opportunity to operators to voluntarily resign with severance and commuted value from their pension.

From what I hear, 90% of the employees has jumped off the sinking ship. Greyhound's future in Canada doesn't look so bright.

I just don't understand how Greyhound lost 90% but Coach Canada lost 82%. If Greyhound kept 2 departures going for Toronto - Ottawa, Toronto - Windsor and Ottawa - Montreal going it should be the same ridership levels as Megabus. The only run I would not recommend Greyhound to operate is Toronto - Niagara Falls as it would be a duplicate service with Megabus.

Pacific Western Toronto Drivers also jumped ship and were offered a severance package.

With Flixbus on Canada's doorstep, if Greyhound Canada does not improve on their equipment, they will experience more losses especially after July.

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