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Broadway SkyTrain Extension

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17 hours ago, Mountie said:

https://engage.gov.bc.ca/broadwaysubway/early-works/

"On behalf of the project, crews from TransLink and the City of Vancouver will be installing trolley poles and wires and upgrading intersection signals and lampposts along portions of:

  • Macdonald Street, between 4th Avenue and Broadway Avenue;
  • 12th Avenue, between Arbutus and Granville Street, and Oak and Cambie Street; and
  • Cambie Street, between Broadway Avenue and 12th Avenue."

Yay! Trolleys on Cambie south of Broadway again, even if it's only 3 blocks.

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Maybe when they're done, they'll keep a trolley route along 12th Ave? Or will it purely be  a backup route like how 41st Avenue has been for the last how many years? Or - my worst fears - will they even keep the trolleybuses by then? Hmm...

(speculation ensues)

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1 hour ago, Jaymaud0804 said:

eLeCtRiC bUsEs ArE tHe FuTuRe ....

... Only where trolley infrastructure does not exist. Trolleys are the original 'Plug 'n' Play. Trolleys with IMC are the future.

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9 hours ago, captaintrolley said:

... Only where trolley infrastructure does not exist. Trolleys are the original 'Plug 'n' Play. Trolleys with IMC are the future.

Hence the sarcasm font

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Vancouver builds new trolley infastructure, where's all the users that six weeks ago said the system gets no support 🤷‍♂️

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2 hours ago, Dane said:

Vancouver builds new trolley infastructure, where's all the users that six weeks ago said the system gets no support 🤷‍♂️

Even if TL wanted to dieselize those routes - which they probably would prefer to do during the construction, even if they would want to restore the overhead afterwards - they couldn’t. If they sideline that many ExxLFRs, then they don’t have enough buses to keep expanding service elsewhere. The real discussion about the future of the trolleybus network will happen in another five years or so, when the planned replacement of the ExxLFRs coincides with Millennium Line extension bus implementation, and when we have actual data from the trial of battery-electric buses on the #100.

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On ‎2‎/‎7‎/‎2019 at 4:53 AM, Mountie said:

https://engage.gov.bc.ca/broadwaysubway/early-works/

"On behalf of the project, crews from TransLink and the City of Vancouver will be installing trolley poles and wires and upgrading intersection signals and lampposts along portions of:

  • Macdonald Street, between 4th Avenue and Broadway Avenue;
  • 12th Avenue, between Arbutus and Granville Street, and Oak and Cambie Street; and
  • Cambie Street, between Broadway Avenue and 12th Avenue."

Wow, those are extensive detours. I thought they were going to use tunnel boring rather than cut and cover, so I don't understand why the diversions off Broadway have to be so long e.g. Granville all the way to Arbutus. If only the fleet had 2019 standards of In Motion Charging, this capital expenditure could have been avoided not only for the 14,16 and 17, but the 9 could have been kept as a trolleybus service, with the middle section operated on batteries to cope with the various diversions.

Can somebody explain the diversion on to MacDonald Street, as it's well west of the initial terminus at Arbutus?

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Typically, even when the guideway is bored, stations will be cut and covered if at all possible. The bored sections of the Canada Line were done that way.

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15 hours ago, GORDOOM said:

Typically, even when the guideway is bored, stations will be cut and covered if at all possible. The bored sections of the Canada Line were done that way.

I understand that but I couldn't understand why the blockage of Broadway has to go so far west of the two stations at Granville and then Arbutus. 

Since raising the question about the diversions, I've been told that the 14 will run on 4th then Macdonald and back to the normal route on Broadway, Alma, 10th etc. With hindsight it's obvious that the 14 wouldn't be able to use the diversion on 12th, as station works at Arbutus would prevent turning back onto Broadway from Arbutus.

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23 hours ago, martin607 said:

Can somebody explain the diversion on to MacDonald Street, as it's well west of the initial terminus at Arbutus?

I'm by no means an expert, but this is what I think. The diversion onto Macdonald is for the 14, which will then go on 4th until the cloverleaf at the south end of the Granville St Bridge and then up the bridge following its usual route.

There is no street between Arbutus and Macdonald which is wide enough for buses to go through. Diverting onto Arbutus is a no-go, because the intersection at 4th and Arbutus has heavy pedestrian and vehicle traffic and is not designed for buses to turn (right turn from NB Arbutus to EB 4th Ave is a tight turn with lots of traffic; left turn on WB 4th Ave onto SB Arbutus has no left turn lane), and Arbutus between 4th Ave and Broadway is narrow but also very heavily used already.

In addition, since Arbutus is the terminus, they need space to extract the tunnel boring machine. This hole would likely start just east of Arbutus and extend west to Yew St. They also will need to create enough space to build the eventual UBC extension, which will mean the cut and cover hole will be longer than the rest of the stations. This will most likely preclude the ability to turn left on EB Broadway onto NB Arbutus during the construction period.

With that in mind, since Arbutus is a no-go, and nothing before Arbutus works, Macdonald is pretty much the only option.

The diversions onto 12th Ave are for the 16 (between Arbutus and Granville) and the 17 (between Oak and Cambie). They both currently travel on a portion of Broadway and the wires on 12th will allow them to avoid Broadway. It's not much of a diversion, really.

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2 hours ago, briguychau said:

I'm by no means an expert, but this is what I think. The diversion onto Macdonald is for the 14, which will then go on 4th until the cloverleaf at the south end of the Granville St Bridge and then up the bridge following its usual route.

There is no street between Arbutus and Macdonald which is wide enough for buses to go through. Diverting onto Arbutus is a no-go, because the intersection at 4th and Arbutus has heavy pedestrian and vehicle traffic and is not designed for buses to turn (right turn from NB Arbutus to EB 4th Ave is a tight turn with lots of traffic; left turn on WB 4th Ave onto SB Arbutus has no left turn lane), and Arbutus between 4th Ave and Broadway is narrow but also very heavily used already.

In addition, since Arbutus is the terminus, they need space to extract the tunnel boring machine. This hole would likely start just east of Arbutus and extend west to Yew St. They also will need to create enough space to build the eventual UBC extension, which will mean the cut and cover hole will be longer than the rest of the stations. This will most likely preclude the ability to turn left on EB Broadway onto NB Arbutus during the construction period.

With that in mind, since Arbutus is a no-go, and nothing before Arbutus works, Macdonald is pretty much the only option.

The diversions onto 12th Ave are for the 16 (between Arbutus and Granville) and the 17 (between Oak and Cambie). They both currently travel on a portion of Broadway and the wires on 12th will allow them to avoid Broadway. It's not much of a diversion, really.

Thanks - you've filled out the detail for me. I had worked out which routes were going where e.g. see the post just before yours. A number of further points.

Re the 17, it's a bit of an uphill walk from Broadway to 12th for us more senior people. That said I wonder if some people will like the diversion. The route on 12th runs past the hospital (no walk up from Broadway) and it passes City Hall. So some people may actually like the diversionary route, though no doubt others would prefer direct access to businesses etc on Broadway.

On ‎2‎/‎7‎/‎2019 at 10:53 PM, Mark Walton said:

Yay! Trolleys on Cambie south of Broadway again, even if it's only 3 blocks.

How about an extension further south? Given that the substations are already there and paid for (e.g. the one on the corner of the old Oakridge TC) stringing up a few km of wire wouldn't cost that much.😉 One for the dreams and aspirations thread, perhaps.

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35 minutes ago, Jaymaud0804 said:

I heard 1.5 million/kilometer

Normally that might be right when you have to provide new substations to feed the line as well as the overhead wires themselves. But in this case I suspect the substation capacity is already there from the previous existence of the route. For example there is the large substation at the corner of the old Oakridge TC. And a major new substation was installed for the opening of the extensions to Marine Drive station. These and others could supply the necessary power through the usual system of feeder cables. So the cost might be reduced to a $750,000 / kilometer or less.

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More importantly, though, why? There’s a lot of other places where stringing wire would be a lot more worthwhile, especially given how much #15 ridership has cratered since the opening of the Canada Line.

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2 hours ago, GORDOOM said:

More importantly, though, why? There’s a lot of other places where stringing wire would be a lot more worthwhile, especially given how much #15 ridership has cratered since the opening of the Canada Line.

If the 4 got rerouted to VCC... now that I'd like.

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3 hours ago, buizelbus said:

If the 4 got rerouted to VCC... now that I'd like.

Once the full extension to UBC goes ahead, do that as a replacement for the #84.

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I think they should just keep the one-seat option from UBC to downtown in the (4? Dont get me wrong I'm in favour of cancelling the 84)/14/44.

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7 hours ago, GORDOOM said:

More importantly, though, why? There’s a lot of other places where stringing wire would be a lot more worthwhile, especially given how much #15 ridership has cratered since the opening of the Canada Line.

I agree. I was just expanding the fantasy about Cambie trolleybuses set off by @Mark Walton . Anyway this has gone way off topic for this thread. Sorry.

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Getting back to the main topic, does anybody have links showing detailed plans of exactly where the new stations will be positioned on the street layout? Where will the station entrances be? Also are there any drawings of the layout of the interchange at Broadway- City Hall station? I haven't been able to find much final detail so far though there is some information in this link.  https://dailyhive.com/vancouver/skytrain-broadway-extension-millennium-line-stations-vancouver

One thing that I did find interesting in the article was the share of destinations for B 99 passengers. Currently 47% get off in the Central Broadway sector up to Arbutus, while 44% are heading for UBC. So that leaves 9% alighting in between. Where should intermediate stations be built? 6% change at Alma so that leaves the question whether it would really be sensible to build stations at MacDonald and Sasamat for 1% or 2% each. Imagine the train travelling from Arbutus to UBC with only one intermediate stop at Alma.

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11 minutes ago, martin607 said:

Getting back to the main topic, does anybody have links showing detailed plans of exactly where the new stations will be positioned on the street layout? Where will the station entrances be? Also are there any drawings of the layout of the interchange at Broadway- City Hall station? I haven't been able to find much final detail so far though there is some information in this link.  https://dailyhive.com/vancouver/skytrain-broadway-extension-millennium-line-stations-vancouver

One thing that I did find interesting in the article was the share of destinations for B 99 passengers. Currently 47% get off in the Central Broadway sector up to Arbutus, while 44% are heading for UBC. So that leaves 9% alighting in between. Where should intermediate stations be built? 6% change at Alma so that leaves the question whether it would really be sensible to build stations at MacDonald and Sasamat for 1% or 2% each. Imagine the train travelling from Arbutus to UBC with only one intermediate stop at Alma.

They could always do similar to the Canada line and allocate space to build those stations in the future when the demand increases, rather than during the initial construction. Or they could put them in right away and hope that the existence of the stations/train brings in more traffic to and from those areas.

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1 minute ago, ThatBusGuy said:

They could always do similar to the Canada line and allocate space to build those stations in the future when the demand increases, rather than during the initial construction. Or they could put them in right away and hope that the existence of the stations/train brings in more traffic to and from those areas.

Yes I was thinking that they could "future proof" the potential station location rather than build straight away. There will still be local bus service, so people could just take the local bus up W.10th Ave from the Alma station

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3 hours ago, martin607 said:

Getting back to the main topic, does anybody have links showing detailed plans of exactly where the new stations will be positioned on the street layout? Where will the station entrances be? Also are there any drawings of the layout of the interchange at Broadway- City Hall station? I haven't been able to find much final detail so far though there is some information in this link.  https://dailyhive.com/vancouver/skytrain-broadway-extension-millennium-line-stations-vancouver

One thing that I did find interesting in the article was the share of destinations for B 99 passengers. Currently 47% get off in the Central Broadway sector up to Arbutus, while 44% are heading for UBC. So that leaves 9% alighting in between. Where should intermediate stations be built? 6% change at Alma so that leaves the question whether it would really be sensible to build stations at MacDonald and Sasamat for 1% or 2% each. Imagine the train travelling from Arbutus to UBC with only one intermediate stop at Alma.

Percentages don't matter if youve got no numbers to base it off of. We're too early in the planning stages to have any station layout ready. Ask again in 2020. 

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1 hour ago, Translink69 said:

At least we know what and what not to do after the Canada Line mess...

And yet AIUI they’re repeating the mistake of only having one entrance per station. Not only does this make the station more awkward to access and less integrated into the neighbourhood, but emergency exits are actually more effective when they’re regular routes of ingress and egress. (If they’re full-time entrances, then they’re part of passengers’ mental maps even if they don’t normally use those particular entrances.)

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