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FlyerD901

General Subway/RT Discussion

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15 hours ago, FlyerD901 said:

RFI for new subway cars

T1 replacement. Looks like they're getting the ball rolling

Have they done an RFI for subway cars before? I guess there is no rush, to do an RFQ or an RFP.

I wish they'd issue the RFP, or simply contract the extra streetcars though.

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I guess they've been burned badly by Bombardier with the LFLRV's both in delivery dates and quality/reliability, they want to see what else is out there.

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10 hours ago, nfitz said:

Have they done an RFI for subway cars before? I guess there is no rush, to do an RFQ or an RFP.

I wish they'd issue the RFP, or simply contract the extra streetcars though.

I don't recall an RFI - I may have just missed it - but they did some sort of open bidding process for the subway order that resulted in the TRs.

 

On 8/8/2020 at 11:16 AM, GTAmissions1 said:

Subway technology has changed over the last 10 years. Drawing from New York and the R211 which their design included Wi-Fi plus USB charging currently in the design and testing phase. Though the R179 trains made by Bombardier have had reliability and manufacturing defects. Toronto Rocket trains also had issues too during the first few months, but it is new technology and hard to iron out the bugs until the final users actually use the new system. 

Subway technology has absolutely not changed in the almost 15 years since the TRs were ordered. The same invertor, motor and control systems that were state-of-the-art then are still applicable now. They are slightly smaller and more efficient perhaps, but that's technological evolution, not revolution.Gangway-linked trains may not have been the norm then, but the TTC certainly wasn't breaking new ground with them, either.

 

Things like USB plugs and Wi-Fi and LED lighting are not inherent to subway design, and there's no reason why they couldn't be fitted after the fact. (In fact, I'm still surprised that they didn't spec LED interior lighting to the TRs from the outset, but that's neither here nor there.)

 

Dan

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2 hours ago, smallspy said:

I don't recall an RFI - I may have just missed it - but they did some sort of open bidding process for the subway order that resulted in the TRs.

 

Subway technology has absolutely not changed in the almost 15 years since the TRs were ordered. The same invertor, motor and control systems that were state-of-the-art then are still applicable now. They are slightly smaller and more efficient perhaps, but that's technological evolution, not revolution.Gangway-linked trains may not have been the norm then, but the TTC certainly wasn't breaking new ground with them, either.

 

Things like USB plugs and Wi-Fi and LED lighting are not inherent to subway design, and there's no reason why they couldn't be fitted after the fact. (In fact, I'm still surprised that they didn't spec LED interior lighting to the TRs from the outset, but that's neither here nor there.)

 

Dan

What I'm interested in seeing and it's a bit too early, this is probably going to have to wait for the TTC to release an official spec sheet, is if this order of subway trains is going to be for another round of 6 car TR type trains or if they're going to go for the idea that's been tossed around for a 7 car train with an additional, shorter car in the consist to fill out the full 500 foot platform length to get more carrying capacity.  Granted, that poses it's own set of secondary issues in the way that Bob Hughes used to say "Every solution has a problem", but it's an idea that some people have thrown out there and I am curious if it is under consideration by the TTC.

Wi-fi?  USB chargers?  Even more LED junk?  Don't care.  Not important.

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5 hours ago, Wayside Observer said:

What I'm interested in seeing and it's a bit too early, this is probably going to have to wait for the TTC to release an official spec sheet, is if this order of subway trains is going to be for another round of 6 car TR type trains or if they're going to go for the idea that's been tossed around for a 7 car train with an additional, shorter car in the consist to fill out the full 500 foot platform length to get more carrying capacity. 

I'm not sure why the 7th car would be shorter. Instead of six 23-metre cars and a 14-metre car, why not make seven 21.8-metre cars - each with 4 doors.

Or eight 19-metre cars, each with 3 to 4 doors.

Or whatever the vendor proposes?

Minimizing the number of cars saved money and maximized riders when there a cab on each car - but now with only two cabs per train, I don't see the need to maximize each car length. Montreal uses the same length platform, and has nine 17-metre cars. 

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5 minutes ago, nfitz said:

I'm not sure why the 7th car would be shorter. Instead of six 23-metre cars and a 14-metre car, why not make seven 21.8-metre cars - each with 4 doors.

Or eight 19-metre cars, each with 3 to 4 doors.

Or whatever the vendor proposes?

Minimizing the number of cars saved money and maximized riders when there a cab on each car - but now with only two cabs per train, I don't see the need to maximize each car length. Montreal uses the same length platform, and has nine 17-metre cars. 

More parts more wheels more of everything.

Having one short car should be cheaper. 

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7 hours ago, Shaun said:

More parts more wheels more of everything.

Having one short car should be cheaper. 

I can see a case why having eight or nine car trains is more expensive.

But how do they save money, making six cars per train one length, and the seventh a different length, compared to just having seven cars the same length .. or at least 5 cars, once you account for the cabs.

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8 hours ago, nfitz said:

I'm not sure why the 7th car would be shorter. Instead of six 23-metre cars and a 14-metre car, why not make seven 21.8-metre cars - each with 4 doors.

Or eight 19-metre cars, each with 3 to 4 doors.

Or whatever the vendor proposes?

Minimizing the number of cars saved money and maximized riders when there a cab on each car - but now with only two cabs per train, I don't see the need to maximize each car length. Montreal uses the same length platform, and has nine 17-metre cars. 

If they change the length of the car, they'll need to have a different setup at the maintenance bay for removing the trucks. That would definitely not work for a mix fleet of old and news. Since they are building a new yard, they could setup Kipling for new trains and Greenwood for old till all the T1s are gone. It would be interesting to see what they come up with for the Ontario Line.

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Also, given the position of some of the axle counters and signals in the ATC retrofit, especially in relation to the platforms, I guarantee that that any new trains will be the same length as the existing trains.

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6 hours ago, Xtrazsteve said:

If they change the length of the car, they'll need to have a different setup at the maintenance bay for removing the trucks. That would definitely not work for a mix fleet of old and news. Since they are building a new yard, they could setup Kipling for new trains and Greenwood for old till all the T1s are gone. It would be interesting to see what they come up with for the Ontario Line.

Obico will be nothing more than a light running facility. It will not be used to perform heavy maintenance on the subway fleet.

 

Greenwood isn't going anywhere.

 

Dan

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16 hours ago, nfitz said:

Or eight 19-metre cars, each with 3 to 4 doors.

I like this idea.

Eight 57 foot cars in a train, three doors each side of each car, red body paint, yellow stripes, black roofs, windows that open, comfortable seats, incandescent lighting, a row of strap hangers down each side.  Yes, I could definitely go for this!

Shame.  Such a shame.

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18 minutes ago, GTAmissions1 said:

The feedback survey will be posted next month along with focus group conversations that will be using the new Line 2 trains. The target is getting the new train set in by 2026 with the entire fleet running by 2030.

http://www.ttc.ca/About_the_TTC/Projects/New_Vehicles/New_Subway_Train/index.jsp

 

Is "try to avoid making the same mistakes that were made on the Toronto Rocket" valid feedback?

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1 hour ago, Wayside Observer said:

Is "try to avoid making the same mistakes that were made on the Toronto Rocket" valid feedback?

What was wrong with the TRs? I've always found them to be fine for the most part. 

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3 hours ago, Doppelkupplung said:

What was wrong with the TRs? I've always found them to be fine for the most part. 

The TR program was done fairly well, but there were still teething issues with the order then and today. 
Operational issues:
- Longer dwell times due to door cycle issues
- Less reliable door system
- Lack of options if doors get stuck
- Lack of spaces to hold onto in the trains
- Accessibility Issues

Cosmetic aesthetic issues (these really don't matter at all)
- Lack of front window (an improvement from an operations perspective)
- outdated screens
- Inconsistent passenger announcements
- Broken LED station displays

Almost all these issues have been fixed or mitigated. 

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1 hour ago, Streety McCarface said:

The TR program was done fairly well, but there were still teething issues with the order then and today. 
Operational issues:
- Longer dwell times due to door cycle issues
- Less reliable door system
- Lack of options if doors get stuck
- Lack of spaces to hold onto in the trains
- Accessibility Issues

Cosmetic aesthetic issues (these really don't matter at all)
- Lack of front window (an improvement from an operations perspective)
- outdated screens
- Inconsistent passenger announcements
- Broken LED station displays

Almost all these issues have been fixed or mitigated. 

They are a tad sluggish...but apparently that's a good thing. 

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Trains will be using the southbound tracks only in both directions from Sheppard West to Finch West this week from 11:30pm until the end of service due to track work. Does this mean trains will run less frequently on this part of the line? Are some northbound trains going to be short turned at Sheppard West or Wilson or will they just head back to the yard? 

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8 minutes ago, Wayside Observer said:

I don't know where progress on Yorkdale stands but as of a couple of years ago there were plans to redo the Arc En Ceil with LEDs.

Still in the plans, as far as anyone could tell. It sounds like they were were waiting on the accessibility work to wrap up before working on the roof - that is supposed to start next year.

 

Dan

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1 hour ago, Orion VI said:

Thing is with this, I live around the area and use Glencairn everyday, they completed this work like 6-8 months ago, this is nothing new.

It is, however, north of Bloor St. so it's entirely possible that one of the downtown crowd finally fell asleep on the train or accidentally strayed too far and only just saw it now.  Next headline:  "Subway Extension To Vaughn Not In Toronto Passes Through Siberia".

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