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General Subway/RT Discussion

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45 minutes ago, 2044 said:

Why are you always arguing with industry experts? They work in their respective fields. I’m pretty sure they know what they’re talking about. 

You make an armchair comment. Get the real deal on what’s going on. And then you get all offended and make snarky remarks. It’s tiring.

Hey i'm just sticking up for myself, personally I dont get butt hurt at all over any of the comments made.

When you have individuals who claim they're "done talking with you", than come back and seek your comments out because they cant get enough then try to boil things up by saying " Calm your tits", than i'm sorry I ain't standing by childish nonsense like that. A comment is a comment, people have their own opinions take it or leave it. I'm not going to go around telling people to "calm their tits" and start making sarcastic remarks just because my opinion or point of view differs.

I've been on this board long enough to avoid half of the childish talk that can go on here regarding foamers, etc.. When it comes to people coming at me, no way in hell i'm taking it.

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6 minutes ago, lip said:

Hey i'm just sticking up for myself, personally I dont get butt hurt at all over any of the comments made.

You sound pretty childish right now. 

7 minutes ago, lip said:

When you have individuals who claim they're "done talking with you", than come back and seek your comments out because they cant get enough then try to boil things up by saying " Calm your tits", than i'm sorry I ain't standing by childish nonsense like that. A comment is a comment, people have their own opinions take it or leave it. I'm not going to go around telling people to "calm their tits" and making sarcastic remarks just because my opinion or point of view differs.

People don't have the right to respect you, you have to earn their right to respect you. Clearly you haven't been doing that. People in particular fields have the mindset you're describing. Don't like it? Don't talk to them

Also, don't conflate opinions and facts, because when you do, misinformation gets spread. 

11 minutes ago, lip said:

I've been on this board long enough to avoid half of the childish talk that can go on here regarding foamers, etc.. When it comes to people coming at me, no way in hell i'm taking it.

Very mature, especially given your need to make remarks about my username instead of make a valid counter-argument. 

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32 minutes ago, Streety McCarface said:

You sound pretty childish right now. 

People don't have the right to respect you, you have to earn their right to respect you. Clearly you haven't been doing that. People in particular fields have the mindset you're describing. Don't like it? Don't talk to them

Also, don't conflate opinions and facts, because when you do, misinformation gets spread. 

Very mature, especially given your need to make remarks about my username instead of make a valid counter-argument. 

Good i'm glad I sound pretty childish, and now that that's settled end of discussion.  There's no need for me to waste my time with a "valid counter-argument". Dont like my comments? Dont reply to them.

Time to get back on topic, there's no need for any extra comments from anyone.

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8 hours ago, Streety McCarface said:

Signing a non-disclosure agreement does not really mean criminal negligence, it means that the information is not for public consumption. The engineering community will basically ruin your life if you stamp a negligent repair, so you have nothing to worry about. The most likely reason for the information not being made public is that the TTC doesn't have the time, money, or resources to put up with hit pieces by the news from people who have never taken an engineering course in their life, and they don't have time to fight lawsuits for non-existent issues. 

Not for public consumption's one aspect of things.  Another issue that comes up that a lot of the kids here might not be familiar with yet is commercial confidentiality concerns.  Bombardier probably wouldn't want proprietary information about the ICTS product line getting out to competitors who could underbid them on refurb work, for one example.   The TTC for sure has their own specific concerns too.

I read a lot of the commission reports about the Scarborough RT when the plan to send cars to Bombardier's plant in New York State when they came out and the distinct impression I got from one document was that in this case, the information's specifically not for other transit authority consumption consumption.  The TTC paid Bombardier to do a lot of R & D work on extending the life of the Mk I ICTS cars which they rightly don't want shared for free to BC Transit and whichever agency operates the Detroit Peoplemover since they'd basically be getting a free windfall on R & D that the TTC paid the full freight on.  When you read the commission reports, apparently a finite element analysis was done on the ICTS cars.  That alone can't have been an inexpensive piece of work to do.

Now, if either of them were to approach the TTC about purchasing intellectual property that was developed for them, I'm sure a deal could be arranged.  The TTC actually had a consulting arm named "Toronto Transit Consultants" that was wound down quite a few years ago but could probably be revived for this sort of purpose if the need comes up.

Signing nondisclosure agreements is pretty routine in business.  Jeez, I've signed a few myself.

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Hmm, today I took the SRT from Kennedy to SCT, and it was impressively quieter, especially in the turn towards midland and towards SCT... It's been maybe 3-4 months since I last took a ride on the SRT, and my ears were ringing for a while after...

Have they done any track improvement there, or is it a result of refurbishing the vehicles?

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3 hours ago, MK78 said:

Hmm, today I took the SRT from Kennedy to SCT, and it was impressively quieter, especially in the turn towards midland and towards SCT... It's been maybe 3-4 months since I last took a ride on the SRT, and my ears were ringing for a while after...

Have they done any track improvement there, or is it a result of refurbishing the vehicles?

SCT... hmm

I’ve seen workers at track level near Midland Station this past week

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Line 2 Leaving St.George posted onto Tik Tok missing door window on a unidentifiable T1 

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12 hours ago, Doppelkupplung said:

Anyone know how fast the TRs go on Line 1 on the strip north of Lawrence? Is this the fastest they go in the system?

I would imagine they go fastest on ATC sections, not sure if ATC has reached Lawrence yet.

I do remember when I took a ride after they opened the vaughn extension, it felt noticeably quicker on the ATC section.

But i'm not a regular rider on TR's so...

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2 hours ago, MK78 said:

I would imagine they go fastest on ATC sections, not sure if ATC has reached Lawrence yet.

I do remember when I took a ride after they opened the vaughn extension, it felt noticeably quicker on the ATC section.

But i'm not a regular rider on TR's so...

ATC does not make trains go faster. It evenly spaces trains. This occasionally means running them closer to other trains, but it doesn't mean the trains run faster. Train speeds are dictated by train traffic ahead, track grade, distance between stops, and track geometry. Eglinton to Lawrence is pretty much dead straight downhill with no intermediate stations, therefore trains can reach 75-80km/h there. You'll never see a train go above 65 km/h on the Spadina subway because of track conditions and stop spacing. 

tl:dr, If the track is clear ahead, you can go as fast as you want with a signal block system. 

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Heh, I remember when the Scarborough RT was running at 80km/h. Used to peek in the cabs and see the speedo. I think on their best day they max out at 60 now.

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I've noticed that since ATO was extended down to St Patrick that the NB trains at St Patrick would sometimes have their doors only partially open to service the platform (and the guard be largely oblivious). Mostly when this happens it's at about 3/4 open but on occasion only halfway open - in which case people visibly struggle to get in or out, and the guard usually will cycle the doors again. Is it something due to the op switching from manual operating mode to ATO mode freezing the doors when opening? 

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22 hours ago, Doppelkupplung said:

Anyone know how fast the TRs go on Line 1 on the strip north of Lawrence? Is this the fastest they go in the system?

Yes, the fastest stretches are Lawrence to York Mills northbound, Sheppard to York Mills southbound, and Finch to North York Centre southbound. They can get up to 79km/h easily there. Some operators claim they can get a TR up to 81 km/h without an eb, and get pretty upset when you mention to them that either speed control or the onboard train systems should have stopped the train at 80. People like to embellish.

9 hours ago, MK78 said:

I would imagine they go fastest on ATC sections, not sure if ATC has reached Lawrence yet.

I do remember when I took a ride after they opened the vaughn extension, it felt noticeably quicker on the ATC section.

But i'm not a regular rider on TR's so...

The track north of Sheppard West allows higher speeds. You'll see up to 70km/h under its own power in some sections if the train is behind schedule.

4 hours ago, 63 Ossington said:

I've noticed that since ATO was extended down to St Patrick that the NB trains at St Patrick would sometimes have their doors only partially open to service the platform (and the guard be largely oblivious). Mostly when this happens it's at about 3/4 open but on occasion only halfway open - in which case people visibly struggle to get in or out, and the guard usually will cycle the doors again. Is it something due to the op switching from manual operating mode to ATO mode freezing the doors when opening? 

Yes, basically switching over too quickly before the doors have fully opened.

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3 minutes ago, Turtle said:

Yes, the fastest stretches are Lawrence to York Mills northbound, Sheppard to York Mills southbound, and Finch to North York Centre southbound. They can get up to 79km/h easily there. Some operators claim they can get a TR up to 81 km/h without an eb, and get pretty upset when you mention to them that either speed control or the onboard train systems should have stopped the train at 80. People like to embellish.

How fast did the H5's go on those sections?

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6 minutes ago, 81-717 said:

How fast did the H5's go on those sections?

I think the issue is uphill. The TR's are very slow going uphill. Especially between York Mills and Sheppard. 

I think the H1's where the fastest. Either that or it was because of the lack of insulation.

Have the schedules stayed the same since the 90's?

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34 minutes ago, 81-717 said:

How fast did the H5's go on those sections?

Don't know, they didn't have speedometers. They were governed to max speeds similar to the T1s which have a speedometer. Some trains were faster than others, or rolled better. It's really hard to say, because a lot of the speed through there is from going downhill, not from the max speed that propulsion still works. The T1s and H5s were governed to somewhere around 62km/h in parallel, don't know the exact speed. A TR cuts propulsion at 78km/h, but doesn't really have much acceleration above 55.

 

So a short answer, is probably the same as the TRs do now downhill, uphill is a different story...

25 minutes ago, Shaun said:

I think the issue is uphill. The TR's are very slow going uphill. Especially between York Mills and Sheppard. 

I think the H1's where the fastest. Either that or it was because of the lack of insulation.

Have the schedules stayed the same since the 90's?

Eglinton to Lawrence northbound it gets above 70km/h. York Mills to Sheppard northbound, a TR will maintain 44km/h, where a T1 would do around 50km/h if I remember correctly. H5 if working correctly would feel slightly faster than a T1, but can't confirm that. With the amount of traffic on the line, top speed is irrelevant now.

 

They added some time to the schedules recently. It helps.

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21 minutes ago, Turtle said:

Don't know, they didn't have speedometers. They were governed to max speeds similar to the T1s which have a speedometer. Some trains were faster than others, or rolled better. It's really hard to say, because a lot of the speed through there is from going downhill, not from the max speed that propulsion still works. The T1s and H5s were governed to somewhere around 62km/h in parallel, don't know the exact speed. A TR cuts propulsion at 78km/h, but doesn't really have much acceleration above 55.

 

So a short answer, is probably the same as the TRs do now downhill, uphill is a different story...

Eglinton to Lawrence northbound it gets above 70km/h. York Mills to Sheppard northbound, a TR will maintain 44km/h, where a T1 would do around 50km/h if I remember correctly. H5 if working correctly would feel slightly faster than a T1, but can't confirm that. With the amount of traffic on the line, top speed is irrelevant now.

 

They added some time to the schedules recently. It helps.

But with a simple programming change they can make the TR's faster going uphill. One would think that it would allow you to increase the northbound capacity by moving more people in the same amount of time. 

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34 minutes ago, Turtle said:

Don't know, they didn't have speedometers. They were governed to max speeds similar to the T1s which have a speedometer. Some trains were faster than others, or rolled better. It's really hard to say, because a lot of the speed through there is from going downhill, not from the max speed that propulsion still works. The T1s and H5s were governed to somewhere around 62km/h in parallel, don't know the exact speed. A TR cuts propulsion at 78km/h, but doesn't really have much acceleration above 55.

 

So a short answer, is probably the same as the TRs do now downhill, uphill is a different story...

Eglinton to Lawrence northbound it gets above 70km/h. York Mills to Sheppard northbound, a TR will maintain 44km/h, where a T1 would do around 50km/h if I remember correctly. H5 if working correctly would feel slightly faster than a T1, but can't confirm that. With the amount of traffic on the line, top speed is irrelevant now.

 

They added some time to the schedules recently. It helps.

Wouldn't it have been possible for an H5 to go above 80, since they weren't limited to 80 unlike the T1s and TRs (though I've heard stories of the TR reaching over 85)? I remember being on an H6 that reached 86 eastbound towards Old Mill, and 87 westbound towards Warden. I wonder why the H6s got the digital speedometers added but the H5s didn't.

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14 minutes ago, Shaun said:

But with a simple programming change they can make the TR's faster going uphill. One would think that it would allow you to increase the northbound capacity by moving more people in the same amount of time. 

Sure they could do that I guess, but the thing limiting capacity up there right now is traffic. It doesn't matter how fast it can operate, when they wait in line to get to the ends. Traffic also slows them down in the core where the stations are closer together.

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15 minutes ago, 81-717 said:

Wouldn't it have been possible for an H5 to go above 80, since they weren't limited to 80 unlike the T1s and TRs (though I've heard stories of the TR reaching over 85)? I remember being on an H6 that reached 86 eastbound towards Old Mill, and 87 westbound towards Warden. I wonder why the H6s got the digital speedometers added but the H5s didn't.

85km/h in a TR is impossible. They apply emergency brakes at 80km/h. 78km/h propulsion cuts out. 79ish you get an overspeed warning, 80km/h it stops. Then you have speed control warning you at anything above 76km/h, and speed control applying emergency brakes at 80. That's two completely separate systems on the train causing an eb. The TRs have always done this, no way anything above 80 is possible without the train stopping.

 

I've heard the stories of H6's doing 85km/h. I've been on T1s that the speedometer was reading above 80. Those analogue speedometers had an adjustment screw that some people messed with, so the calibration could have been off. Wheel size (worn down) could change the reading in a car too.

 

Lets just say the operators hitting those speeds are doing something they aren't supposed to. No way can a TR hit 85km/h unless it you dropped it from an airplane. The only time a TR has ever seen speeds above 81km/h is when it was on the flatbed being delivered from Bombardier. (I say 81 because it takes about a second for the air brakes to apply)

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7 hours ago, MK78 said:

Heh, I remember when the Scarborough RT was running at 80km/h. Used to peek in the cabs and see the speedo. I think on their best day they max out at 60 now.

They used to really move it between Kennedy and Lawrence East as soon as they got clear of the 90 degree turn coming down from the station and again between Lawrence East and Ellesmere.  The TTC has tested out various combinations of maximum speed and acceleration and braking rate profiles on the line to try and make it a little bit more reliable and last a little bit longer though and some performance has been traded off.  The political pressure to keep it running must be immense because I can’t imagine anybody wants to be the person responsible for removing a rapid transit line from the subway map.   Giving up on the CLRVs and busing streetcar lines is not a powder keg like that which is why you didn’t see a whatever-it-takes approach to those compared to the RT.

1 hour ago, Turtle said:

Yes, the fastest stretches are Lawrence to York Mills northbound, Sheppard to York Mills southbound, and Finch to North York Centre southbound. They can get up to 79km/h easily there. Some operators claim they can get a TR up to 81 km/h without an eb, and get pretty upset when you mention to them that either speed control or the onboard train systems should have stopped the train at 80. People like to embellish.

I’m sure people do like to embellish and it’s like a fishing story.  Depending on the instrumentation though and how it’s all put together, especially if the subsystems gather there own separate speed data, a one km/hr discrepancy between 81 when the train should bail at 80 might be within the realm of possibility.  I can name transit vehicles where the ATO/ATC box receives its own speed data from a separate set of sensors from the train’s controller box and they sometimes aren’t in exact agreement. Different sized wheels between trucks being one cause.  It’s the age old instrumentation conundrum.  If you have one clock, you know what time it is.  If you have two, you wonder which one’s right.

Anyways, the run down from Finch was better before North York Centre opened.  Trains would come barreling down to Sheppard and if it was an eight car Gloucester, a trailing cloud of brake dust would waft down into the station following the train.

1 hour ago, Turtle said:
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On 1/26/2020 at 10:23 PM, Wayside Observer said:

Anyways, the run down from Finch was better before North York Centre opened.  Trains would come barreling down to Sheppard and if it was an eight car Gloucester, a trailing cloud of brake dust would waft down into the station following the train.

On the subject of that, did the construction of NYC involve reconstruction of the profile of the tracks & tunnel to make the track within the new station perfectly level (since the stretch from Finch to Sheppard is mostly downhill), which I imagine would make the whole project that much more complicated? Or was the profile already horizontal within that 150-m section of the tunnel to begin with?

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I don't recall near enough service disruptions or construction to have been changing the profile.

Wasn't that location, and one half-way between Lawrence and York Mills, protected in the original construction?

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From what I have read there were provisions for a future North York Centre Station when constructing the line; ie a roughed-in section which I would imagine including a leveled stretch of track.

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