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General Subway/RT Discussion

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17 hours ago, Ed T. said:

Thanks for the information about the RT's operating speeds.

Does the LIM have any particular advantages over conventional traction motors? I'd guess that, since gearing isn't a concept here, that acceleration has an upper bound, but top speed won't be limited by the motor spinning too fast.

Well, the original plan for ICTS before the German government cancelled their financial backing for the project causing Krauss-Maffei to back out leaving UTDC on its own was for a Maglev system.  The Maglev plan is what mandated the linear induction motor since there weren't supposed to be any wheels used in normal operation and the linear induction motor is one of the leftovers from that.  When UTDC reworked it into what the TTC, Vancouver and Detroit got, the sales pitch on the linear induction motor was that it would allow the trains to use small diameter non-resilient wheels and allow them to be able to take steep grades all without having to worry about shoehorning in traditional motors + gearboxes arrangement into a compact train car.

Then again, London Underground managed to pull off traditional motors + gearboxes into an even more compact train car that could still climb pretty decent hills back in 1938 that worked a heck of a lot better than ICTS ever did but I digress.  Anyways, the linear induction motor was repurposed leftovers from the original aborted Maglev take on ICTS.  What I'd love to know is how much it cost to build the inverters that drove those things back in the day.  They used IGBT transistors when those were still quite new and the cost per power semiconductor on the output stage must've been eye popping.

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2 hours ago, Wayside Observer said:

Well, the original plan for ICTS before the German government cancelled their financial backing for the project causing Krauss-Maffei to back out leaving UTDC on its own was for a Maglev system.  The Maglev plan is what mandated the linear induction motor since there weren't supposed to be any wheels used in normal operation and the linear induction motor is one of the leftovers from that.

Thanks for the reminder about the whole maglev thing. I remember riding a maglev shuttle train in Birmingham UK airport in the 1980s. It was an underwhelming experience.:rolleyes:

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There was a 4-car T1 set (5112-5113-5138-5139) parked on one of the outdoor storage tracks at Davisville yard on Fri, June 21 during afternoon rush hour. That was quite surprising (to me!) since it has been a long time since I've seen a T1 up there.

That got me thinking: how does running non-ATC equipment in ATC territory work ? (we all know that ATC on the Spadina line extends down to St. Patrick, so clearly that T1 train had to enter ATC territory to access Davisville yard). Also, I am almost convinced that the move happened at some point during daytime, not at night when the subway is closed.

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AFAIK when ATC is fully deployed T1s won't be able to run on YUS at all. I believe the work cars will get some sort of ATC equipment.

The ATC system does have a manual mode, but i'm assuming it's only practical to use it when the subway closes.

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20 minutes ago, IRT_BMT_IND said:

AFAIK when ATC is fully deployed T1s won't be able to run on YUS at all. I believe the work cars will get some sort of ATC equipment.

The ATC system does have a manual mode, but i'm assuming it's only practical to use it when the subway closes.

I heard the same. However, that train clearly got to Davisville by running on ATC trackage and I am almost sure it happened during daytime. How does manual mode work specifically? How does it preserve safe braking distances between the ATC and non-ATC equipment?

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I have a couple subway-related questions:

1) What causes that rattling noise right above the intercar door whenever the T1's are in motion (this happens often, both in the tunnels and outside, I'm guessing it has something to do with the wind, though I don't see why the wind would cause the rattling)?

2) What is the design life of the TR trains? Is it the same old 30 year figure, or are all current & future trains (starting with the T1's & going forward) going to be designed for a longer 40-50 year life?

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11 hours ago, ttc rider said:

That got me thinking: how does running non-ATC equipment in ATC territory work ? (we all know that ATC on the Spadina line extends down to St. Patrick, so clearly that T1 train had to enter ATC territory to access Davisville yard). Also, I am almost convinced that the move happened at some point during daytime, not at night when the subway is closed.

 

The ATC system may have additional devices for sensing trains, such as axle counters. If it does, it could automatically create a "bubble" around a non-ATC-equipped train that would prevent any other trains from coming close to it.


The problem is that I've never seen such devices trackside, which makes me think that instead a controller needs to manually create that bubble. It's not an ideal situation as while the systems are set up to allow it, it also drastically limits the capacity and throughput of the system, which is why it never would happen while the system is in revenue operation.

 

9 hours ago, 81-717 said:

I have a couple subway-related questions:

2) What is the design life of the TR trains? Is it the same old 30 year figure, or are all current & future trains (starting with the T1's & going forward) going to be designed for a longer 40-50 year life?

The TRs have a design life of 30 years - the same as virtually every subway car built for the TTC before them.


Dan

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12 hours ago, ttc rider said:

There was a 4-car T1 set (5112-5113-5138-5139) parked on one of the outdoor storage tracks at Davisville yard on Fri, June 21 during afternoon rush hour. That was quite surprising (to me!) since it has been a long time since I've seen a T1 up there.

That got me thinking: how does running non-ATC equipment in ATC territory work ? (we all know that ATC on the Spadina line extends down to St. Patrick, so clearly that T1 train had to enter ATC territory to access Davisville yard). Also, I am almost convinced that the move happened at some point during daytime, not at night when the subway is closed.

ATC is currently being installed on the Yonge Portion as of the line right now. Until it is activated live, T1's and other non ATC converted trains and work cars can still roam on there. Although yes they would have to use ATC trains as push/pull between st. George and union to get to the yonge side.

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3 hours ago, smallspy said:

The ATC system may have additional devices for sensing trains, such as axle counters. If it does, it could automatically create a "bubble" around a non-ATC-equipped train that would prevent any other trains from coming close to it.


The problem is that I've never seen such devices trackside, which makes me think that instead a controller needs to manually create that bubble.

Yes, they use axle counters, they are all over the place. I don't have a picture handy, but the transmitter portion of the counters is a yellow topped plastic box installed at about knee height trackside connected by a wire to the counter block on the track. I think there are a couple near wilson station that are fairly easy to see. 

You described it properly, non atc equipment is protected by a larger "bubble" around it. Causes trains behind a migrating train to eb sometimes when they are following close. They need that system to move an ATC equipped train when the system fails on the train. 

 

2 hours ago, Etiennetheclassicsman said:

ATC is currently being installed on the Yonge Portion as of the line right now. Until it is activated live, T1's and other non ATC converted trains and work cars can still roam on there. Although yes they would have to use ATC trains as push/pull between st. George and union to get to the yonge side.

No, they don't couple them up when they move non equipped cars on the system, it is set up to handle a non equipped unit. A non equipped move happens anytime the ATC system fails on a revenue train, which is daily or multiple times daily right now. 

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48 minutes ago, Turtle said:

Yes, they use axle counters, they are all over the place. I don't have a picture handy, but the transmitter portion of the counters is a yellow topped plastic box installed at about knee height trackside connected by a wire to the counter block on the track. I think there are a couple near wilson station that are fairly easy to see. 

You described it properly, non atc equipment is protected by a larger "bubble" around it. Causes trains behind a migrating train to eb sometimes when they are following close. They need that system to move an ATC equipped train when the system fails on the train.

Ahh, thank you. Admittedly, I hadn't had much of a chance to look for them as yet. And this is excellent - it really makes everyone's life easier when necessary to move non-ATC-equipped trains about. In theory, it can be done with virtually no input from the controllers.


Dan

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Speaking of these, I remember a few weeks ago I had a train on Line 1 that was displaying and externally announcing them. Was this a test unit?

When will the other Line 1 and Line 2 trains be fully ready to announce and display them?

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22 hours ago, smallspy said:

Ahh, thank you. Admittedly, I hadn't had much of a chance to look for them as yet. And this is excellent - it really makes everyone's life easier when necessary to move non-ATC-equipped trains about. In theory, it can be done with virtually no input from the controllers.


Dan

I looked around yesterday, the ones near wilson are not really easy to spot if you are riding the train. The axle counters that are easy to see are the ones in the side platform stations. The "transmitter" box is tucked under the platform edge and the sensor blocks are installed on the inside edge of a running rail. At the leaving end there is one or two at each station. Don't go sticking your head over the platform edge to take a look though. It's really easy to see from the opposite platform. Northbound Spadina there are two really dirty axle counters at the north end of the northbound near the "emergency use only" box, easy to see from the north end of the southbound. 

 

You could probably spot a few by looking out the side windows in the open cuts. 

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Do you know why some of the trains get out of service so suddenly?

yesterday, I was heading to my work to the west end.. my subway was stopping at Jane and the train operator said suddenly that the train was out of service.

I know it was just a regular hour, but I think they do that during the rush hour.

What is a clear reason for that?

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2 hours ago, raptorjays said:

Do you know why some of the trains get out of service so suddenly?

yesterday, I was heading to my work to the west end.. my subway was stopping at Jane and the train operator said suddenly that the train was out of service.

I know it was just a regular hour, but I think they do that during the rush hour.

What is a clear reason for that?

Mechanical ... bodily fluids ... probably something like that. Though, occasionally they will short-turn one ... not sure the customary west-end locations.

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8 hours ago, DAT_28 said:

Line 4 trains are now showing and saying “Line 4, to Sheppard-Yonge”

They've been saying this pretty consistantly since the signs were first installed last summer or so.

 

6 hours ago, Cityflyer said:

Speaking of these, I remember a few weeks ago I had a train on Line 1 that was displaying and externally announcing them. Was this a test unit?

Probably an overzealous operator. The equipment has been installed and functional for quite some time.

 

Quote

When will the other Line 1 and Line 2 trains be fully ready to announce and display them?

When Bombardier finishes the hardware and software to drive them properly. The TRs were supposedly close in the spring, with no known ETA for the T1s on the B-D.

 

Dan

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12 hours ago, DAT_28 said:

Line 4 trains are now showing and saying “Line 4, to Sheppard-Yonge”

4 hours ago, smallspy said:

They've been saying this pretty consistantly since the signs were first installed last summer or so.

There was a change in the past week or so that changed the westbound display from the incorrect "Line 4 to Sheppard" to "Line 4 to Sheppard-Yonge", which now scrolls. The voice program has also been updated to eliminate the pause between "Line 4" and "to (destination)".

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Breaking topics here a bit, but this has kinda been on my mind lately

when the SRT was being designed, it was made for CLRV operation. Hence the initial side platforms and dual tracks at Kennedy as CLRV’s couldn’t operate reverse tripe without turning around.

my question is then, what was the idea with McCowan, where would CLRVs turn around? Was McCowan designed after they had changed the vehicle type, or were there any actual modifications during construction to accommodate the Mark Is instead? 

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10 hours ago, 110B West Pickering said:

Breaking topics here a bit, but this has kinda been on my mind lately

when the SRT was being designed, it was made for CLRV operation. Hence the initial side platforms and dual tracks at Kennedy as CLRV’s couldn’t operate reverse tripe without turning around.

my question is then, what was the idea with McCowan, where would CLRVs turn around? Was McCowan designed after they had changed the vehicle type, or were there any actual modifications during construction to accommodate the Mark Is instead? 

Much of the work at Kennedy had been completed with the construction of the subway station shortly before the construction of the rest of the SRT started. That's why so much of its original configuration remained after the opening of the SRT.


The rest of the stations hadn't yet really started, although if you know where to look you can see some telling - and peculiar - structural elements and changes to the structure as part of the redesign. And as for the configuration of the loop at McCowan, well that was simply done away with the change in vehicle type. There is a loop at the yard, but it is unpowered and seldom used.

 

Dan

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So the T1's have run exclusively on line 2 for a while now, but why is the flat wheel issue become such an issue only recently? The H6 cars would constantly slide to a stop but never had issues with flat wheels? If I'm not mistaken the wheel type of different on the H6 and T1's? Could that be part of the issue? This was not really an issue when they where on line 1, which has outdoor running as well.

Are the operators harder on the equipment, causing more flat wheel spots?

https://globalnews.ca/news/5477856/ttc-line-2-subway-vibrations-noise-update/

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1 hour ago, Shaun said:

So the T1's have run exclusively on line 2 for a while now, but why is the flat wheel issue become such an issue only recently? The H6 cars would constantly slide to a stop but never had issues with flat wheels? If I'm not mistaken the wheel type of different on the H6 and T1's? Could that be part of the issue? This was not really an issue when they where on line 1, which has outdoor running as well.

Are the operators harder on the equipment, causing more flat wheel spots?

https://globalnews.ca/news/5477856/ttc-line-2-subway-vibrations-noise-update/

I swear wheel flats have been an issue for the T1 fleet for years. Isn’t that one of the reasons why some operators decide to wear ear plugs while operating them?

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