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General Subway/RT Discussion


FlyerD901

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On 6/19/2022 at 6:03 AM, TTC103 said:

I feel like this issue is a good example of why things cost so much for the TTC. I'm sure that Alstom has proposed changes to how the TTC reschedules trains to ensure that trains are always correctly routed, but the TTC and its workers seem to think they understand the problem better than the Alstom's safety engineers, who almost certainly have dealt with this issue before for clients operating driverless trains. If you constantly ignore the advice of experts, and then turn around and blame them after something goes wrong, they might not want to work for you anymore, or they will start charging extra to offset the cost of working with a difficult customer.

You put far too much faith in the Alstom engineers.

My first hand experience, having worked with them, is that they are abysmal engineers and have utterly no idea how their software and control systems work. The number of times they have been unable to explain why things happen in the system is unbelievable.

Now, some of that may come from the fact that TTC didn't go with the Iconis front-end, instead going with a hybridized version that is similar to the existing legacy signalling interface. But there's utterly no reason why Alstom, who made the entire interface, are utterly clueless as to how it works.

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On 7/13/2022 at 2:01 PM, nfitz said:

That's at afternoon peak, when there's already 4-minute service. In some of the off-peak slots they are adding 5 trains, increasing the number of trains from 14 to 19. This pushes Saturday daytime service from 20 to 26 trains - it was only 24 trains in summer 2019 (but 26 trains in January 2020). Sunday daytime is now 22, same as summer 2019 and January 2020.

The real deficit is still rush-hour with 31 trains at AM Peak compared to 41 in summer 2019 (and 46 trains in January 2020). PM Peak will be only 27 trains, compared to 36 trains in summer 2019 and 43 trains in January 2020.

Are they doing any overhaul work on the T1's since there are more spares available? We don't have replacements for them even put out for tender so it's safe to say that they will be around for a few more years. Will they be wrapping all of them in the shiny wrap? 

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On 7/15/2022 at 6:46 PM, Archer said:

You put far too much faith in the Alstom engineers.

My first hand experience, having worked with them, is that they are abysmal engineers and have utterly no idea how their software and control systems work. The number of times they have been unable to explain why things happen in the system is unbelievable.

Now, some of that may come from the fact that TTC didn't go with the Iconis front-end, instead going with a hybridized version that is similar to the existing legacy signalling interface. But there's utterly no reason why Alstom, who made the entire interface, are utterly clueless as to how it works.

well... their incompetence is prob a reason why their previous entity failed to stay in the market which led to their sale.

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On 7/16/2022 at 8:39 PM, Shaun said:

Are they doing any overhaul work on the T1's since there are more spares available? We don't have replacements for them even put out for tender so it's safe to say that they will be around for a few more years. Will they be wrapping all of them in the shiny wrap? 

https://stevemunro.ca/2022/06/22/the-gaping-hole-in-ttc-funding/

This article touches on the issue at hand, they've already contacted suppliers but haven't actually awarded the contract because a large chunk of the required funding is still missing, which poses the threat of jeopardizing the whole project. The T1s are scheduled to remain in service for "a few more years" anyway (until 2026–2030), but if they get a 10-year extension it'll be a LOT more than just "a few more years". Hopefully they'll be able to get the required funding in time (don't know if there's a set deadline) so they can avoid moving forward with the life extension option. This ain't New York, Toronto's subways were never meant to last 40–50 years instead of 30–35, and the T1s & TRs are no exception.

Quote

Subway Trains and Facilities

The purchase of subway trains (primarily replacements for the existing T-1 fleet on Line 2 BD) must be fully funded before the TTC signs a contract lest the City be on the hook for funding that was assumed to be available from others.

The total project cost is $2.3 billion of which only $619 million in City funding has been nailed down. No provincial nor federal contribution has arrived.

If TTC is unsuccessful in receiving funding for the subway car purchase, then the existing funding of $619 million will need to be increased by $100 million and utilized for T1 Life Extension Overhaul instead, to extend the useful life of the T1 trains from 30 to 40 years, thereby deferring the cost of subway trains that will inevitably be required. [p. 25]

The TTC has an RFP on the street for supply of these trains, but it is unclear if they will be able to award the contract. If the decision is taken to rebuild the existing fleet, this carries two major risks:

Whether the fleet will last reliably to 2040. The TTC’s experience with life extension programs has mixed results notably with the CLRV/ALRV streetcar fleets, and of course with the SRT fleet.

What will be done about the signal system on Line 2. ATC conversion is a funded project, but retrofitting the T-1 fleet for ATC operation would be expensive and add to the complexity of any overhaul. The SSE to Sheppard is planned to operate with ATC. Conversely if the existing system is left in place, it would be over 70 years old by 2040.

This is not simply a question of shuffling money around in the budget, but of potentially boxing in the TTC’s options for the future of the Bloor-Danforth subway.

Related unfunded projects include changes to Greenwood Yard and additional storage to accommodate the co-existence of old and new fleets. Further in the future is a new subway yard west of Kipling Station that could be either a standalone project or built as part of a western extension of Line 2.

Meanwhile on Line 1 YUS, the TTC plans a new yard in York Region to supplement storage for that line. However, this yard is not part of the Yonge North Extension project and it is not funded. Funding for additional trains both to extend Line 1 and to increase service is likewise not part of the YNSE project.

 

88b1330d9a762cce5305d4ff079448af.jpg

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Although the Scarborough subway is a better solution it's still more expensive than ordering new trains for the Scarborough RT. 

Does anyone know if the price tag for new cars the TTC was quoted is similar to what was quoted for Vancouver?

https://buzzer.translink.ca/2022/08/next-generation-of-skytrain-cars-take-shape/

They could have piggybacked on that order. 

 

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4 hours ago, Shaun said:

Although the Scarborough subway is a better solution it's still more expensive than ordering new trains for the Scarborough RT. 

Does anyone know if the price tag for new cars the TTC was quoted is similar to what was quoted for Vancouver?

https://buzzer.translink.ca/2022/08/next-generation-of-skytrain-cars-take-shape/

They could have piggybacked on that order. 

 

https://youtu.be/JizzeERcZjg

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1 hour ago, Shaun said:

Likely due to problems with the cross over tracks. 

The work zone is on the outdoor section of the southbound track, well north of the crossover; there are sections of ballast dug up in this area.

The slow order actually ends at the crossover, being six car lengths from the end of the work zone; however, given the platform is almost there, there's no room to accelerate to full speed before needing to stop, so trains continue their slow speed into the platform.

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1 hour ago, raptorjays said:

Probably another evidence that Line 2 is treated like trash.

Do you people realize how ridiculous these comments sound in the era of air-conditioned, wheelchair accessible transit vehicles?

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5 hours ago, T3G said:

Do you people realize how ridiculous these comments sound in the era of air-conditioned, wheelchair accessible transit vehicles?

The issue with the T1's was finding new computer components and spares which are becoming difficult to find. 

Its not like the H1 and H2 days where you could just rebuild or reverse engineer components or build new ones that fit. 

With that said would it be possible to build and replace the entire computer system with new technology? And would that be more cost effective than buying new rolling stock? 

The T1's use a GTO VVVF traction motor which is still very commonly used around the world so I'm sure someone knows how to create a code for it. Maybe you can use an existing software and modify it to fit the current profile programmed today. 

I don't know how plausible that is but it could extend the life of the T1's without having to worry about computer components. 

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NEW SUBWAY TRAINS

his Request for Proposals is an invitation by the Toronto Transit Commission to those Proponents that were pre-qualified under Request for Supplier Qualification P76PH22075 - New Subway Trains to submit Proposals for New Subway Trains. The successful Proponent will be responsible for all Deliverables associated with the NST of every kind (Car and non-Car), in every stage of their preparation and completion, to be provided, and all work, including warranty work and latent defect work. For clarity, this scope of Work includes associated equipment necessary to facilitate operation and maintenance of the trains.

Request for Proposal documents are available for download through TTC’s Bonfire Portal at https://ttc.bonfirehub.ca/opportunities/55969

The Proponent must have been pre-qualified by TTC for its Proposal to be evaluated. Only the following companies have been pre-qualified by TTC and only Proposals submitted by these prequalified Proponents will be evaluated and accepted: 1. Alstom Transport Canada Inc. 2. CRRC Qingdao Sifang Co., Ltd. 3. Hyundai Rotem Company 4. Kawasaki Rail Car, Inc

Name of Trade Agreement(s) that is Applicable to the procurement - Canada-European Union Comprehensive Economic and Trade Agreement (CETA) Chapter 19, Canadian Free Trade Agreement (CFTA) Chapter 506, Trans-Pacific Partnership (TPP) chapter 15 and United States-Mexico-Canada Agreement (USMCA) chapter 13.
 

I hope everyone is able to read it, if not let me know

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5 hours ago, FlyerD901 said:

NEW SUBWAY TRAINS

his Request for Proposals is an invitation by the Toronto Transit Commission to those Proponents that were pre-qualified under Request for Supplier Qualification P76PH22075 - New Subway Trains to submit Proposals for New Subway Trains. The successful Proponent will be responsible for all Deliverables associated with the NST of every kind (Car and non-Car), in every stage of their preparation and completion, to be provided, and all work, including warranty work and latent defect work. For clarity, this scope of Work includes associated equipment necessary to facilitate operation and maintenance of the trains.

Request for Proposal documents are available for download through TTC’s Bonfire Portal at https://ttc.bonfirehub.ca/opportunities/55969

The Proponent must have been pre-qualified by TTC for its Proposal to be evaluated. Only the following companies have been pre-qualified by TTC and only Proposals submitted by these prequalified Proponents will be evaluated and accepted: 1. Alstom Transport Canada Inc. 2. CRRC Qingdao Sifang Co., Ltd. 3. Hyundai Rotem Company 4. Kawasaki Rail Car, Inc

Name of Trade Agreement(s) that is Applicable to the procurement - Canada-European Union Comprehensive Economic and Trade Agreement (CETA) Chapter 19, Canadian Free Trade Agreement (CFTA) Chapter 506, Trans-Pacific Partnership (TPP) chapter 15 and United States-Mexico-Canada Agreement (USMCA) chapter 13.
 

I hope everyone is able to read it, if not let me know

Interestingly, Siemens is left out

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38 minutes ago, John Oke said:

Interestingly, Siemens is left out

My instincts say the Chinese company will be cheapest but likely won't win. Alstom likely has the upper hand since they have the facility to build trains in TTC gauge and could modify the TR design.  

Hyundai and Kawasaki may be good candidates.  

Do they have to pick the lowest bidder?

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