General Subway/RT Discussion

[smallspy]

20 hours ago, lip said:

Perhaps I should have specified i'm talking about a bus only roadway (not your typical Mississauga styled transitway with stations): the section south of Lawrence to Kennedy could have the ROW expanded slightly to accommodate for an expanded Bus roadway. Between Lawrence East and Ellesmere could be done only with expropriation involved. The elevated section itself is a write off and nothing can really be done there.

Having a bus only roadway, even after the subway is open, could speed up some bus travel times.

A bus lane needs to be 12 to 13 feet wide. Add a second lane for the traffic in the opposite direction and you're dangerously close to 25 feet. And that isn't even accounting for things like shoulders and other things that are required to be added for safety to the corridor. We're not even considering a platform for a station.

 

The corridor south of Lawrence is barely 25 feet wide most of the way as it is today, and widening it isn't in the cards. It's less than that to the north.

 

So where are you going to be able to put this roadway, then?

 

Look, I'm not arguing that a bus-only road wouldn't help - of course it will. But it's also not so easy as pointing at a strip of land and going "there!". For all of the time that will be required to make it work, and the money required for engineering and then constructing it - never mind the issues surrounding the expropriation process - is it going to be worth it for 3-to-5 years of use? Almost certainly not.

 

Dan

[lip]

1 hour ago, smallspy said:

A bus lane needs to be 12 to 13 feet wide. Add a second lane for the traffic in the opposite direction and you're dangerously close to 25 feet. And that isn't even accounting for things like shoulders and other things that are required to be added for safety to the corridor. We're not even considering a platform for a station.

 

The corridor south of Lawrence is barely 25 feet wide most of the way as it is today, and widening it isn't in the cards. It's less than that to the north.

 

So where are you going to be able to put this roadway, then?

 

Look, I'm not arguing that a bus-only road wouldn't help - of course it will. But it's also not so easy as pointing at a strip of land and going "there!". For all of the time that will be required to make it work, and the money required for engineering and then constructing it - never mind the issues surrounding the expropriation process - is it going to be worth it for 3-to-5 years of use? Almost certainly not.

 

Dan

The ROW on SRT corridor between Eglinton and Ellesmere is generally around 27 feet wide. As I mentioned before, the value in keeping the ROW would be to serve as a bus roadway (ie: without stations) to speed up travel times on neighboring routes such as Kennedy and Midland, even after to subway is opened as McCowan Road is far enough east that there is still value for riders on site. Using it as a bus only roadway instead of a traditional BRT means that you required less space since stations arent included.

The corridor south of Lawrence can relatively speaking, be easily widened by a couple of feet to accommodate a roadway as most of it is city owned land.

As you mentioned, the corridor north Lawrence is tight and it would be up to the city in determining the cost/benefit of expropriating a few properties to expand the ROW. If you're looking to use the corridor for 3-5 years then most certainly it isnt worth the process, but if you're looking to keep the corridor intact indefinitely than there is certainly value in exploring its use as a bus roadway.

[nfitz]

4 hours ago, smallspy said:

The corridor south of Lawrence is barely 25 feet wide most of the way as it is today, and widening it isn't in the cards. It's less than that to the north.

City property map https://map.toronto.ca/maps/map.jsp?app=TorontoMaps_v2 says over 38 feet wide.

 

3 hours ago, lip said:

The ROW on SRT corridor between Eglinton and Ellesmere is generally around 27 feet wide

Looks closer to 17.5 feet wide. But the northbound track looks to be on the Metrolinx property, not in the city ROW.

 

[lip]

On 2/9/2021 at 1:22 PM, nfitz said:

City property map https://map.toronto.ca/maps/map.jsp?app=TorontoMaps_v2 says over 38 feet wide.

 

Looks closer to 17.5 feet wide. But the northbound track looks to be on the Metrolinx property, not in the city ROW.

 

Very good find. So with the ROW section between Lawrence and Ellesmere, negotiations would be needed with Metrolinx to expand on the city-owned ROW space. But if you take that space into account, it gives nearly 30 feet of space end-to-end.

Coming up with an additional foot or two for additional safety requirements could require expropriation in certain sections, but we wouldn't be talking about a huge swath of land needing it.

The section south of Lawrence wouldn't be a difficult task in pursuing.

Thus, circles back to my original point that if the city really wanted to, it's possible to convert the ROW into a bus-only roadway.

[smallspy]

8 hours ago, lip said:

Very good find. So with the ROW section between Lawrence and Ellesmere, negotiations would be needed with Metrolinx to expand on the city-owned ROW space. But if you take that space into account, it gives nearly 30 feet of space end-to-end.

And where does Metrolinx put the second track that they are currently building?

 

Oh, keep in mind that the pair of tracks that they are building there will also have a less-than-standard center-to-center measurement because of how constrained the corridor is.

 

Quote

Coming up with an additional foot or two for additional safety requirements could require expropriation in certain sections, but we wouldn't be talking about a huge swath of land needing it.

It's not a foot or two, but whatever....

 

Expropriation doesn't happen at the snap of a finger. There's a process that it has to go through. It doesn't happen overnight.

 

Quote

The section south of Lawrence wouldn't be a difficult task in pursuing.

Thus, circles back to my original point that if the city really wanted to, it's possible to convert the ROW into a bus-only roadway.

Again, sure, if they wanted to they could. I don't think that was ever in doubt.

 

Hell, if they wanted to they could tear down the elevated section and build an elevated bus roadway along that stretch. They could even build it at ground level to make it cheaper.

 

But you still haven't answered whether it is WORTHWHILE to. Just because something can be done doesn't mean that it should be done.

 

Dan

[nfitz]

2 hours ago, smallspy said:

And where does Metrolinx put the second track that they are currently building?

 

Oh, keep in mind that the pair of tracks that they are building there will also have a less-than-standard center-to-center measurement because of how constrained the corridor is.

 

It's not a foot or two, but whatever....

During the public consultations they were very clear that the new Metrolinx works didn't preclude the continued existence of Line 4 - which at that time was going to operate until 2026, and they did anticipate both would operate together briefly. 

Presumably it's more constrained in that spot because the SRT track is partly in their right-of-way. So presumably if city has BRT there temporarily, and doesn't require more space, then nothing changes.

[lip]

9 hours ago, smallspy said:

And where does Metrolinx put the second track that they are currently building?

 

Oh, keep in mind that the pair of tracks that they are building there will also have a less-than-standard center-to-center measurement because of how constrained the corridor is.

There is still sufficient space even with the second track Metrolinx is constructing. It's a tighter squeeze obviously, but it's still workable.

 

9 hours ago, smallspy said:

Expropriation doesn't happen at the snap of a finger. There's a process that it has to go through. It doesn't happen overnight.

Of course expropriation is not a quick process, but it would still be able to be completed much sooner than 2030 (the "anticipated" opening of the Scarborough subway extension). I'm more willing to bet the date gets pushed out to 2031-2032 knowing the delays we've faced with recent major transit projects.

 

10 hours ago, smallspy said:

But you still haven't answered whether it is WORTHWHILE to. Just because something can be done doesn't mean that it should be done.

At the end of the day, a cost-benefit analysis is the only thing that can hammer down the advantages of embarking on this endeavor. However like I said, it would be worthwhile only if the bus roadway is constructed on a permanent basis. It would provide quick rapid bus travel to commuters who travel along the Kennedy, Midland, and even Birchmount corridors. Also it provides another redundancy in the network in case subway service is down on any point of the extension (and in Toronto the more redundancies the better, because delays seemingly cripple TTC service every other day).

In any case, a motion was moved by the TTC board to explore a bus roadway/BRT option in the corridor so we'll see what comes out of it.

[Shaun]

On 2/11/2021 at 7:30 PM, lip said:

There is still sufficient space even with the second track Metrolinx is constructing. It's a tighter squeeze obviously, but it's still workable.

 

Of course expropriation is not a quick process, but it would still be able to be completed much sooner than 2030 (the "anticipated" opening of the Scarborough subway extension). I'm more willing to bet the date gets pushed out to 2031-2032 knowing the delays we've faced with recent major transit projects.

 

At the end of the day, a cost-benefit analysis is the only thing that can hammer down the advantages of embarking on this endeavor. However like I said, it would be worthwhile only if the bus roadway is constructed on a permanent basis. It would provide quick rapid bus travel to commuters who travel along the Kennedy, Midland, and even Birchmount corridors. Also it provides another redundancy in the network in case subway service is down on any point of the extension (and in Toronto the more redundancies the better, because delays seemingly cripple TTC service every other day).

In any case, a motion was moved by the TTC board to explore a bus roadway/BRT option in the corridor so we'll see what comes out of it.

I think bus priority signals would be cheaper. Plus you would only need it in the fleet of busses using that route, plus the other buses that use that road so maybe 100? Plus you have two years to install it and test it. 

[smallspy]

On 2/11/2021 at 11:47 AM, nfitz said:

During the public consultations they were very clear that the new Metrolinx works didn't preclude the continued existence of Line 4 - which at that time was going to operate until 2026, and they did anticipate both would operate together briefly. 

Presumably it's more constrained in that spot because the SRT track is partly in their right-of-way. So presumably if city has BRT there temporarily, and doesn't require more space, then nothing changes.

I wasn't suggesting that the SRT needs to stop running because Metrolinx wants to put a second track through there.

 

Metrolinx obviously needs the full width of their available corridor. With the SRT corridor only occupying 18 or so feet of width, that makes that existing corridor far too narrow in its current configuration to support a busway.

 

It would require a substantial amount of additional property - entirely located to the west of the corridor - to make it feasible.

 

Dan

[lip]

On 2/13/2021 at 4:23 PM, Shaun said:

I think bus priority signals would be cheaper. Plus you would only need it in the fleet of busses using that route, plus the other buses that use that road so maybe 100? Plus you have two years to install it and test it. 

Wishful thinking with Toronto Transportation Servicees running the show in Toronto. They wont even activate signal priority on existing streetcar ROW corridors.

I wont even mention the fact it's taken them 4+ years from concept to finally start implementing "smart" signals in this city.

[Shaun]

20 hours ago, lip said:

Wishful thinking with Toronto Transportation Servicees running the show in Toronto. They wont even activate signal priority on existing streetcar ROW corridors.

I wont even mention the fact it's taken them 4+ years from concept to finally start implementing "smart" signals in this city.

Do you have any idea the logistics required to pull off a project that size? How many major intersections are in the city? And having it or it having it at one effects another. 

It's not as easy as you think. 

[lip]

38 minutes ago, Shaun said:

Do you have any idea the logistics required to pull off a project that size? How many major intersections are in the city? And having it or it having it at one effects another. 

It's not as easy as you think. 

I'm not suggesting that it's easy, but this it isnt rocket science technology. It's technology that already exists and it's on the market, the city isnt pioneering some kind of new invention. Im saying that it's embarrassing that it even took them 4 years to get a handful of intersections up and running.

Toronto likes to drag its feet on improvements that any other jurisdiction can get done in half the amount of time.

[MRD10]

I was thinking about McCowan yard the other day and it's future.

Currently there are no plans to utilize it after the SRT shutdown. My best guess is it will be demolished and declared as surplus land.

My idea for it's revitalization is this. As the TTC will be buying 63 additional buses for the replacement bus service (in either 2023 or 2027), why not turn McCowan into an interim bus yard, similar to Obico. Since the divisions are already over capacity, even with McNicoll opening, I think this would be a good short-term solution to the bus storage issues.

Additionally, if and when the Scarborough Subway extension is built, I would like to see McCowan turned into a permanent subway yard, similar to Keele (Vincent) yard. It would house the extra trains procured for the extension.

This revitalization idea is currently part of a project that I am working on. If anyone is interested, I can share updates as it gets further developed. But right now, I'm looking for your insight, opinions and thoughts about this project! Thanks to anyone who responds!

 

[Bus_Medic]

It won’t be needed.

[Mike]

I am glad that the TTC is finally doing full subway shut down for 10 days on part of line 1 instead of doing early shut downs at 11pm.  Hopefully, they will continue doing this while the pandemic is still raging and ridership is way down.  This was they can put a significant dent into their repair back log and get it done much sooner.

[GTAmissions1]

An updated plan for the Yonge North subway extension. 

Especially since they are trying to run adjacent to Richmond Hill Go line along with building above ground and reducing the amount of stations. To try and minimize costs. Even though it is unknown when the Ontario Line will open to shift the demand to and not push Yonge line to capacity during peak periods. Even with the measures such as automated train control and additional trains to squeeze out some more space.

https://blog.metrolinx.com/2021/03/18/updated-plans-for-torontos-yonge-north-subway-extension-released/

[2822]

2 hours ago, 110B West Pickering said:

Effective September 7

Durham Region Transit will begin offering service to McCowan RT Station on street every 30 minutes on route 920, a new route connecting McCowan, Centennial College, Sheppard East, Pickering, Ajax, Ajax Amazon Facility, Whitby, Oshawa and Durham College North Campus

How many buses will this route use? Seems pretty long.

[Shaun]

On 5/28/2021 at 8:44 PM, 2822 said:

How many buses will this route use? Seems pretty long.

Why not go to STC instead of McCowan?

[T3G]

https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/2021/06/02/its-a-miracle-how-two-ttc-subway-trains-came-within-seconds-of-a-disastrous-collision.html

[Doppelkupplung]

https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/2021/06/02/its-a-miracle-how-two-ttc-subway-trains-came-within-seconds-of-a-disastrous-collision.html
 

try incognito mode if there’s a paywall

[Archer]

2 minutes ago, Doppelkupplung said:

https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/2021/06/02/its-a-miracle-how-two-ttc-subway-trains-came-within-seconds-of-a-disastrous-collision.html
 

try incognito mode if there’s a paywall

This was literally posted two posts above.

[GTAmissions1]

5 hours ago, PCC Guy said:

https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/2021/06/02/its-a-miracle-how-two-ttc-subway-trains-came-within-seconds-of-a-disastrous-collision.html

Alternative link here: https://outline.com/Xb6cR2

9 minutes ago, Doppelkupplung said:

https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/2021/06/02/its-a-miracle-how-two-ttc-subway-trains-came-within-seconds-of-a-disastrous-collision.html
 

try incognito mode if there’s a paywall

For future reference, if linking a Toronto Star article, use Outline. Here is the link: https://outline.com

Copy and paste the Toronto Star link and it will show the entire article without ads or the paywall. Incognito mode doesn't work sometimes especially if it only works for a few hours once the article is posted. 

[Doppelkupplung]

Oh shoot, my apologies, I scrolled right past it. 
 

my bad my bad

[TTC103]

Is there a link to the video of the incident that doesn’t have a paywall?

[GTAmissions1]

39 minutes ago, TTC103 said:

Is there a link to the video of the incident that doesn’t have a paywall?

I have Apple News, so I was able to bypass the paywall and extract the link here.

NOTE: You CAN only access the video by this link or if someone shares it. It is not searchable because it is set to private.