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Future TTC Bus Orders


FlyerD901
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Don't the NOVA 3400's do that at every stop when the diesel side goes quiet? A media event might be useful but with the current Toronto-Ontario fight over the TTC and the funding for all municipal transit in the province, an electric bus and all it"s wares might be overshadowed.

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https://montrealgazette.com/news/local-news/fuel-savings-of-stms-hybrid-buses-less-than-half-what-was-promised-documents-show

STM in Montreal says the nova HEV are basically the same crap the TTC experienced with the Orion VII hybrids. Fuel savings isn't there, battery doesn't work well in extremely cold, AC makes them consume more fuel and etc.

They fooled the city for paying for a bunch of lemons.

In the recent TTC CEO report, it claims the nova HEV are on target with fuel savings. Now I wonder if they are playing the same card. Will they buy more on 2021?

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10 hours ago, Xtrazsteve said:

In the recent TTC CEO report, it claims the nova HEV are on target with fuel savings. 

I can tell you that diesel Novas show fuel consumption in the low 50 litres per 100 km, most hybrid Novas are in high 30's and low 40's. I've had one down to 27.6L/100 km over a distance of about 17 km,  when I was deadheading. So they can be very efficient. Now these numbers are what the bus shows on the display. Actual amount of fuel used might be slightly different.  

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2 hours ago, Someguy3071 said:

I can tell you that diesel Novas show fuel consumption in the low 50 litres per 100 km, most hybrid Novas are in high 30's and low 40's. I've had one down to 27.6L/100 km over a distance of about 17 km,  when I was deadheading. So they can be very efficient. Now these numbers are what the bus shows on the display. Actual amount of fuel used might be slightly different.  

That's good to know. Keep us updated when it's AC season. 

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2 hours ago, Someguy3071 said:

This is an from an artic. Thirsty beasts. 

IMG_20190611_154340.jpg

Bear in mind that is the average including the obscene amount of static idling time our vehicles see.

The stop/go of transit service almost deliberately forces one to drive the vehicle in the most inefficient manner possible.

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1 hour ago, Chris.A said:

You guys need to go back to CNG. Just saying.

https://www.ttc.ca/About_the_TTC/Commission_reports_and_information/Commission_meetings/2018/June_12/Reports/27_Green_Bus_Technology_Plan_Update.pdf

0FCB399C-FF02-4A59-B2D1-DFDD9BF81656.thumb.jpeg.faab3374eb1fbd98c3d639a08ee13437.jpegBDE81649-CBFD-4048-9282-E55FF96DE89B.thumb.jpeg.7cd9d260c67e07b0e3da8a8ff285871d.jpeg

The option was explored and shelved.

Steve Munro goes into greater detail about the how’s and why nots of that decision in the bottom 1/3 of this blog post:

https://stevemunro.ca/2018/06/11/ttc-plans-for-a-zero-emission-bus-fleet/

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^They've been ordering CNG buses since 2015, and all future buses orders for the foreseeable future will be of this type.

The reason why there was a pause before that was because the HSR was evaluating the sustainability of continuing with CNG bus purchases for a couple reasons (mainly HSR CNG related infrastructure issues, and natural gas prices).

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31 minutes ago, meltingtomato said:

Would be interesting to see how the HSR's fleet does fuel mileage wise, but by that same token, if CNG is that great, why does Hamilton go back and forth between the two?

I don’t have easy access to the current figures, but the operation costs per kilometre may actually be closer between the two than it would appear on the surface.

for instance, CNG pros would be:

-elimination of particulate filters, DEF tanks and equipment from the vehicles, increasing day to day reliability.

-relatively low cost per cubic metre, the ability to be produced domestically, price being theoretically less affected by international politics...but since they’re a bulk customer locked into long term contracts, that’s less of a concern.

-pipeline delivery right to the maintenance facility virtually guarantees an inexhaustible supply.

cons:

-reduced engine lifespan between major overhauls.

-the need to hydrostatically certify onboard pressure tanks.

-technicians must be specially trained and certified. Re certification can be an ongoing expense, although minor in the grand scheme of things.

-reduced energy density can limit range.

-maintenance facility electrical systems must be rated for explosive environments, or de-fuelling must be done before the bus can be shoved inside, and obviously complicates running the engine indoors for diagnostic purposes. Obviously Hamilton has swallowed that costly pill already.

- indoor stations must also have the same vapour tight and spark proof rating (this was, and would continue to be a severe handicap to operational flexibility in Toronto, less so for Hamilton)

 

Much of the financial attraction to pursue CNG on incoming orders may have everything to do with the cubic metre rate that’s agreed upon as their multi year contract with their supplier comes up for renewal, but that’s an educated guess on my part.

 

edit: Lip appears to have a more succinct explanation.

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1 hour ago, meltingtomato said:

Would be interesting to see how the HSR's fleet does fuel mileage wise, but by that same token, if CNG is that great, why does Hamilton go back and forth between the two?

I actually was talking about TTC's bus fleet.

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8 hours ago, Imgursdownvote4love said:

Does Hamilton use RNG?

Edit: I swear I clicked on the HSR thread

They utilize CNG supplied by union gas. 

In actual practice, there wouldn’t be a dedicated RNG pipe or tank on site. It would be more like the money the HSR pays would go towards producing the RNG gas, and feeding it into the greater grid, much like bullfrog power does with renewable electricity.

Again, credit goes to Steve Munro:

72901221-40D0-46E2-A972-7ECF433486D3.thumb.jpeg.9cd68092cb885ce25d204a3be9532064.jpeg

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15 hours ago, Bus_Medic said:

Bear in mind that is the average including the obscene amount of static idling time our vehicles see.

The stop/go of transit service almost deliberately forces one to drive the vehicle in the most inefficient manner possible.

Absolutely right!

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13 hours ago, Chris.A said:

I actually was talking about TTC's bus fleet.

Yes, but given that they have otherwise a somewhat comparable fleet (Nova L9 for TTC vs L9G for HSR), the question about fuel efficiency makes sense. The additional point about why the HSR went back and forth between CNG and diesel was my curiosity.

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On 6/11/2019 at 3:38 AM, Xtrazsteve said:

That's good to know. Keep us updated when it's AC season. 

This of from a hybrid Nova. I don't know how much A/C was used though. But as you can see that over 8000 km this bus averaged 40.6L per100 km. I wonder if Montreal buses are optioned differently to cause high fuel consumption. 

IMG_20190614_220858.jpg

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On 6/10/2019 at 2:49 PM, Xtrazsteve said:

https://montrealgazette.com/news/local-news/fuel-savings-of-stms-hybrid-buses-less-than-half-what-was-promised-documents-show

STM in Montreal says the nova HEV are basically the same crap the TTC experienced with the Orion VII hybrids. Fuel savings isn't there, battery doesn't work well in extremely cold, AC makes them consume more fuel and etc.

They fooled the city for paying for a bunch of lemons.

In the recent TTC CEO report, it claims the nova HEV are on target with fuel savings. Now I wonder if they are playing the same card. Will they buy more on 2021?

I don't think STMs have the same start/stop technology ours have (at least yet).

 

However the other thing to note is their fuel use comparison is with their diesel buses that they do not order with A/C. 

 

Hybrids have A/C standard as there must be a cooling option for the batteries. 

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