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13 hours ago, lip said:

NFI seems to place bids that don't meet the specs set out for whatever reason time and time again, even though NFI knows exactly what's disqualifying them each time. It's more of a half-hearted "let's just bid for the sake of bidding, just to say we placed a bid"; doesn't seem like they're quite interested to me. Of course the tendering process was competitive, however NFI knows they arent really putting in their full 2 steps into the water with their bids when they submit them.

Considering that it costs them money to prepare a bid - those employees doing the paperwork and calculations don't work for free - suggesting that they are "not quite interested" is a bit of a stretch, don't you think?

 

Dan

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17 hours ago, lip said:

NFI seems to place bids that don't meet the specs set out for whatever reason time and time again, even though NFI knows exactly what's disqualifying them each time. It's more of a half-hearted "let's just bid for the sake of bidding, just to say we placed a bid"; doesn't seem like they're quite interested to me. Of course the tendering process was competitive, however NFI knows they arent really putting in their full 2 steps into the water with their bids when they submit them.

 

On 6/5/2018 at 3:03 PM, lip said:

New Flyer really loves coming up with BS reasons as to why they cant/wont submit a competitive bid in Toronto. If they dont want to play the game with the TTC, then next time they shouldn't even bother submitting a bid.

While Dan has already commented on this, I have something to add.

From the report: "In March 2018, New Flyer pulled out of the competition due to limited production capacity and a belief that, as with the previous clean diesel procurement, they would not be able to compete with Nova commercially"

It's hardly a "BS reason" to pull out if you don't have the production capacity to meet the requirements for delivery timeline. As I recall, when Calgary was looking for a supplier for 150 buses for their accelerated replacement program, Nova Bus wasn't about to supply buses in time, whereas New Flyer was, so they got the award for 150 buses.

What would happen if New Flyer pushed themselves, figured they could deliver on time but couldn't? Then we're going to be stuck hearing all the bitching and moaning that New Flyer shouldn't have bid if they couldn't meet the delivery timelines, and not to mention the TTC suffers from having to keep older buses longer.

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23 minutes ago, M. Parsons said:

 

While Dan has already commented on this, I have something to add.

From the report: "In March 2018, New Flyer pulled out of the competition due to limited production capacity and a belief that, as with the previous clean diesel procurement, they would not be able to compete with Nova commercially"

It's hardly a "BS reason" to pull out if you don't have the production capacity to meet the requirements for delivery timeline. As I recall, when Calgary was looking for a supplier for 150 buses for their accelerated replacement program, Nova Bus wasn't about to supply buses in time, whereas New Flyer was, so they got the award for 150 buses.

What would happen if New Flyer pushed themselves, figured they could deliver on time but couldn't? Then we're going to be stuck hearing all the bitching and moaning that New Flyer shouldn't have bid if they couldn't meet the delivery timelines, and not to mention the TTC suffers from having to keep older buses longer.

This is clearly just an EXCUSE for them not to bid rather than an ACTUAL reason of not to bid, I am sure they can deliver on time to meet the delivery requirement if they want, but maybe it's not as profitable for them to speed up their production, by hiring more people and acquiring more resources JUST to fulfill the contract for TTC.............you know business is business at the end of the day and not to mention NFI always have a full book of business.  Guess if you wish to place an order of 500 D60 high floor buses from NFI, are they going to do it for you?  They will do WHATEVER to fulfill your request!

I am surprised enough to see NovaBus being ABLE to deliver ALL 342 LFS buses to TTC in less than 9 months in 2017, at the end of the day their profit margin on this contract has to be LESS comparing to having them delivered in 2 years instead.............which NovaBus might think this contract favorable(profitable for sure) but not so much with other supplier, such as New Flyer, for example..................

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39 minutes ago, M. Parsons said:

 

While Dan has already commented on this, I have something to add.

From the report: "In March 2018, New Flyer pulled out of the competition due to limited production capacity and a belief that, as with the previous clean diesel procurement, they would not be able to compete with Nova commercially"

It's hardly a "BS reason" to pull out if you don't have the production capacity to meet the requirements for delivery timeline. As I recall, when Calgary was looking for a supplier for 150 buses for their accelerated replacement program, Nova Bus wasn't about to supply buses in time, whereas New Flyer was, so they got the award for 150 buses.

What would happen if New Flyer pushed themselves, figured they could deliver on time but couldn't? Then we're going to be stuck hearing all the bitching and moaning that New Flyer shouldn't have bid if they couldn't meet the delivery timelines, and not to mention the TTC suffers from having to keep older buses longer.

It's a BS reason. Something similar happened with the MTA in New York when they were procuring buses (I dont recall the exact year/bus model) but instead of pulling out their bid, the order was simply split between NFI and NovaBus. If this was the MTA, there's no way NFI would simply withdraw their bid due to "limited production capacity". Sure they would probably be concerned that they wouldnt be able to deliver the buses in time, in which case there are a couple options that would be looked at.

 

4 hours ago, smallspy said:

Considering that it costs them money to prepare a bid - those employees doing the paperwork and calculations don't work for free - suggesting that they are "not quite interested" is a bit of a stretch, don't you think?

 

Dan

It may be a bit of a reach, but the way NFI has been doing their business with the TTC I wouldn't put it past them. The amount of money it costs them to submit a bid is peanuts compared to their earnings each year, and the potential earnings that can be made with the contract. It's not uncommon to see manufacturers in various industries to submit a bid for a contract, fully knowing they either: a) have a minuscule chance of actually winning the bid or, B) being able of actually fulfilling the full terms of the contract. Sometimes they just throw a dart at the dart board to see where it lands.

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17 hours ago, lip said:

It may be a bit of a reach, but the way NFI has been doing their business with the TTC I wouldn't put it past them. The amount of money it costs them to submit a bid is peanuts compared to their earnings each year, and the potential earnings that can be made with the contract. It's not uncommon to see manufacturers in various industries to submit a bid for a contract, fully knowing they either: a) have a minuscule chance of actually winning the bid or, B) being able of actually fulfilling the full terms of the contract. Sometimes they just throw a dart at the dart board to see where it lands.

Put your tinfoil hat away. If NFI didn't think that they wouldn't win the bid than they wouldn't bid - period. In fact, they've done that before, remember?

 

There's no need to see "where the dart on the dart board lands" because by nature all contracts with public transit agencies are open already and publicly posted. They could easily see where they would have been in relation to their competitors. Compiling and submitting a bid just to do that would be a huge waste of money.

 

Dan

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Someone added the 2021 procurement to the wiki and I'm wondering: has this actually been approved or is this a projection?

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1 hour ago, ADB said:

Someone added the 2021 procurement to the wiki and I'm wondering: has this actually been approved or is this a projection?

It's a projection currently

Also is the 3400-3453 fleet number for the LFS HEVs actually confirmed or speculation?

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14 minutes ago, TechnicaProductions said:

It's a projection currently

Also is the 3400-3453 fleet number for the LFS HEVs actually confirmed or speculation?

If it's a projection, then it should be removed.

Fleet numbers have been confirmed.

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1 hour ago, ADB said:

If it's a projection, then it should be removed.

Fleet numbers have been confirmed.

Actually there will be 55 buses being delivered in this order. Therefore the range will be 3400-3454.

 

Dan

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1 hour ago, smallspy said:

Actually there will be 55 buses being delivered in this order. Therefore the range will be 3400-3454.

 

Dan

Is that an extra bus or a bus taken from the 271 diesel batch?

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12 minutes ago, FabianColeyLOVESBUSES said:

They aren't going back to CNG. They are simply studying it and how it could happen with help from Enbridge.

 

Dan

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On 6/11/2018 at 12:38 PM, FabianColeyLOVESBUSES said:

Not so much an article but a puff piece for natural gas buses from a New York based organization. And the Star printed it anyway.

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I think they are better off with converting busy routes into trolley bus routes than to go with electric or CNG buses. Taking the cost of each vehicles and installation of infrastructure, the cost can be similar but trolley buses is a proven technology. With modern batteries, trolley buses can disconnect and detour for a short distance.

 

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23 minutes ago, Xtrazsteve said:

I think they are better off with converting busy routes into trolley bus routes than to go with electric or CNG buses. Taking the cost of each vehicles and installation of infrastructure, the cost can be similar but trolley buses is a proven technology. With modern batteries, trolley buses can disconnect and detour for a short distance.

 

Routes 6, 7, 26, 32, 40, 47, 61, 63, 74, 75, 84, 89, 94, and 98 would be suitable for a trolley bus network?

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1 hour ago, TTC T6H-5307N 2252 said:

Routes 6, 7, 26, 32, 40, 47, 61, 63, 74, 75, 84, 89, 94, and 98 would be suitable for a trolley bus network?

People may want Trolley buses, but not going happen. A fair number of systems have moved to CNG or in the process, but not in TTC cards. It may deal with pollution very well, but the overhead become pollution that is not welcome by many, including me. 

Some years ago I was on the Ministry of the Environment Round Table Committee where representatives from the CNG industries were pushing the government to get transit agencies to move to CNG since there were better engines and other options out there than going to hybird and using diesel.  It never made it to the recommendation list going to cabinet. A lot of recommendations that did go to cabinet never saw the light of day.

E Buses are the future, but years off for lower cost.

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1 hour ago, drum118 said:

People may want Trolley buses, but not going happen. A fair number of systems have moved to CNG or in the process, but not in TTC cards. It may deal with pollution very well, but the overhead become pollution that is not welcome by many, including me. 

Some years ago I was on the Ministry of the Environment Round Table Committee where representatives from the CNG industries were pushing the government to get transit agencies to move to CNG since there were better engines and other options out there than going to hybird and using diesel.  It never made it to the recommendation list going to cabinet. A lot of recommendations that did go to cabinet never saw the light of day.

E Buses are the future, but years off for lower cost.

I do like to see eBuses take off if they are reliable and can cover the range of busy routes. TTC had problems with CNG buses in the past and decided it's not worth it. Same with the hybrids and we'll see how these new hybrids perform.

With today's technology, trolley buses will be superior to eBuses in terms of reliability, mileage and vehicle life. I rather be on a bus that doesn't break down and can get me from A to B on a cold winter day than to have nothing show up.

Although the presence of more more overhead wires is unwanted by many, many of streets have hydro wires and poles along the side. It's not exactly unpolluted.

3 hours ago, TTC T6H-5307N 2252 said:

Routes 6, 7, 26, 32, 40, 47, 61, 63, 74, 75, 84, 89, 94, and 98 would be suitable for a trolley bus network?

If the TTC was to install a trolley bus network, it will be for busy routes like the 7, 29, 39/199 and 35/195. Routes with high ridership and less branches.

 

I expect none of the technology are going to work out for the TTC and they're go back to diesel buses in the future or no buses at all. I don't not believe TTC will be ordering all emission free buses by 2025 nor would they set up a trolley bus network.

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12 hours ago, dowlingm said:

Not so much an article but a puff piece for natural gas buses from a New York based organization. And the Star printed it anyway.

It’s a non starter as written.

all the gas those digesters produce goes into the tanks of the waste collection truck fleet. There’s nothing left for the TTC anyway.

9 hours ago, drum118 said:

People may want Trolley buses, but not going happen. A fair number of systems have moved to CNG or in the process, but not in TTC cards. It may deal with pollution very well, but the overhead become pollution that is not welcome by many, including me. 

Some years ago I was on the Ministry of the Environment Round Table Committee where representatives from the CNG industries were pushing the government to get transit agencies to move to CNG since there were better engines and other options out there than going to hybird and using diesel.  It never made it to the recommendation list going to cabinet. A lot of recommendations that did go to cabinet never saw the light of day.

E Buses are the future, but years off for lower cost.

If the engines are “better”,how come the the CNG garbage trucks (all Westport 9 litres) are lining up outside of Mid Ontario Mack’s door for inframe rebuilds at only 350 000km?

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3 hours ago, Bus_Medic said:

It’s a non starter as written.

all the gas those digesters produce goes into the tanks of the waste collection truck fleet. There’s nothing left for the TTC anyway.

If the engines are “better”,how come the the CNG garbage trucks (all Westport 9 litres) are lining up outside of Mid Ontario Mack’s door for inframe rebuilds at only 350 000km?

I'm no engine expert, but based on what I read and knew at the time, I didn't support the idea of moving to CNG at the round table and not the only one who didn't support the idea. I have lost a few non CNG engines under 200,000 km doing mostly highway driving.

One only has to look to Hamilton HRS, Translink to see what is taking place.

Seen a number of US system testing out CNG and some have move 100% to it. Then funding and environment requirements are paid for by state and feds to make the move. Others are going E bus.

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