Future TTC Bus Orders

[PrimeTio]

Nova Bus

23 hours ago, FlyerD901 said:

I hope the New Flyers keep the exterior rear grill as the current all-electric buses. And not the smooth plain back rear end. 

 

They will keep it, I know a bunch of agencies have the exterior grill

[wil9402]

4 hours ago, Someguy3071 said:

New Flyer

I know Arrow operators would agree with you. When compared to the Novas, the XE40s have some ergonomic issues, the driver's shield is pretty much useless and ride quality is not the best. Hopefully the TTC and New Flyer can iron out some of these issues with these new buses.

Doing some thinking after reading the reports before the board next week. It seems as though the 268 hybrids and 100 ebuses to come next year will be replacement units, while the 68 artics will likely be expansion units for the Line 3 replacement bus service. I would not be surprised to see the new artics go to McNicoll and Malvern to be used on some of the routes extended to Kennedy Station, shifting some or all of the east end Nova artics to the west end. I'm expecting quite a few movements within the current fleet next year as well, including more hand me down diesel Novas for Queensway.

[Someguy3071]

13 hours ago, PrimeTio said:

Nova Bus

Drive some buses and then talk. Nova hybrid is a better bus. 

9 hours ago, wil9402 said:

I know Arrow operators would agree with you. When compared to the Novas, the XE40s have some ergonomic issues, the driver's shield is pretty much useless and ride quality is not the best. Hopefully the TTC and New Flyer can iron out some of these issues with these new buses.

I don't know how much they can change without a major redesign. 

9 hours ago, wil9402 said:

Doing some thinking after reading the reports before the board next week. It seems as though the 268 hybrids and 100 ebuses to come next year will be replacement units, while the 68 artics will likely be expansion units for the Line 3 replacement bus service. I would not be surprised to see the new artics go to McNicoll and Malvern to be used on some of the routes extended to Kennedy Station, shifting some or all of the east end Nova artics to the west end. I'm expecting quite a few movements within the current fleet next year as well, including more hand me down diesel Novas for Queensway.

I think most of New Flyer buses will go to Mt. Dennis. I don't think line 3 bus replacement will get new buses but will be Nova artics from Malvern and McNicholl. 

7 hours ago, Someguy3071 said:

 

 

[Bus_Medic]

5 hours ago, wil9402 said:

I know Arrow operators would agree with you. When compared to the Novas, the XE40s have some ergonomic issues, the driver's shield is pretty much useless and ride quality is not the best. Hopefully the TTC and New Flyer can iron out some of these issues with these new buses.

Doing some thinking after reading the reports before the board next week. It seems as though the 268 hybrids and 100 ebuses to come next year will be replacement units, while the 68 artics will likely be expansion units for the Line 3 replacement bus service. I would not be surprised to see the new artics go to McNicoll and Malvern to be used on some of the routes extended to Kennedy Station, shifting some or all of the east end Nova artics to the west end. I'm expecting quite a few movements within the current fleet next year as well, including more hand me down diesel Novas for Queensway.

That’s assuming the respective plants can crank them out on time.

As for the RT replacement, the existing Nova bus artic fleet would be a better application regarding fuel consumption- high speed with relatively few stops.

Of course this also assumes they proceed with the ROW conversion past Ellesmere. Reading the conversion report, they mentioned bus overhaul in the capital budget. If I was a betting man, I’d reckon most of that will go towards sending the 79’s and maybe some 8000’s through a second time…either to bridge the gap on street while the rails get ripped up, or knock on demand while others are used for the on street shuttle.

9 hours ago, PrimeTio said:

Nova Bus

They will keep it, I know a bunch of agencies have the exterior grill

All nuts and bolts have six sides.

9 hours ago, Someguy3071 said:

New Flyer

See above.

[Shaun]

Did NOVA loose the hybrid bid because they were more expensive? Even with the commonality in parts with the existing fleet?

[Young]

6 minutes ago, Shaun said:

Did NOVA loose the hybrid bid because they were more expensive? Even with the commonality in parts with the existing fleet?

They didn’t lose its split between Nova and New Flyer 

[Shaun]

25 minutes ago, Young said:

They didn’t lose its split between Nova and New Flyer 

Right but the artic order went to New flyer. 

[Young]

14 minutes ago, Shaun said:

Right but the artic order went to New flyer. 

Oh yea I think they picked them cause a lot of companies use the XDE60s and only a very few use Nova LFS HEV Artics

[lip]

2 hours ago, Young said:

They didn’t lose its split between Nova and New Flyer 

It most likely had to do with order fulfillment timelines, with of course cost playing a factor to an extent. No one knows for sure if they wouldve went with 100% Novas or 100% New Flyer, but there are still supply chain issues that both companies are dealing with and as the TTC wants to accept the buses by a certain date, going 100% with 1 company likely wouldve compromised that.

 

1 hour ago, Young said:

Oh yea I think they picked them cause a lot of companies use the XDE60s and only a very few use Nova LFS HEV Artics

Yeah sorry but, no that's not the reason.

[Young]

12 minutes ago, lip said:

It most likely had to do with order fulfillment timelines, with of course cost playing a factor to an extent. No one knows for sure if they wouldve went with 100% Novas or 100% New Flyer, but there are still supply chain issues that both companies are dealing with and as the TTC wants to accept the buses by a certain date, going 100% with 1 company likely wouldve compromised that.

 

Yeah sorry but, no that's not the reason.

That’s why I said I think

[Bus_Medic]

The split order is basically the only tool they have to try and mitigate supply chain shortages messing up projected delivery deadlines.

Wether it will actually do a lick of good remains to be seen, as the guts of all 3 types will be supplied by Cummins, Bosch and BAE. These are where the real shortages lie.

[Bus_Medic]

More to the point, most of the production delays can be chalked up to this:

18 inches of pure unobtainum.

THIS is what’s kneecapping trucking and transit this year.

It’s a DEF level/ quality sensor, and it’ll condemn your vehicle to a 5 mile per hour crawl when it goes out. It’s a smart device with a microprocessor inside, and production of the chips inside it ceased when China locked down for COVID-19.

The particular device in my hand was a month coming. And it’s recipient vehicle had been laid up all that time. New vehicle production is equally affected.

[lifty4ever]

On 4/7/2022 at 2:45 PM, Young said:

Oh wow I’m actually shocked they went with new Flyer for the 68 artics at least there’s variety now

Yeah, no kidding. Not that im unhappy. I would've thought that making all the Hybrids Nova would've kept maintenance cheap and simple but maybe there won't be a massive difference between the Flyer and Nova hybrids. It will be very interesting to see Nova artics and Flyer Artics running around on the MtD routes such as Dufferin, Keele and Jane. Please for the love of all that is sensible let Jane get some of those artics. I hope what i've heard in the grapevine is correct. I wonder who'll get the order for electric artics. I believe that was part of the plan to order some

On 4/7/2022 at 7:07 PM, Young said:

Half or all of these will probably go to Mount Dennis to replace the 146 Orion VII OG HEV and remaining NG hybrids and maybe Malvern or Wilson

Indeed though, they might do a bunch of refrigerator shuffling with buses we currently have to then accommodate the new ones. 

[Young]

10 hours ago, lifty4ever said:

Yeah, no kidding. Not that im unhappy. I would've thought that making all the Hybrids Nova would've kept maintenance cheap and simple but maybe there won't be a massive difference between the Flyer and Nova hybrids. It will be very interesting to see Nova artics and Flyer Artics running around on the MtD routes such as Dufferin, Keele and Jane. Please for the love of all that is sensible let Jane get some of those artics. I hope what i've heard in the grapevine is correct. I wonder who'll get the order for electric artics. I believe that was part of the plan to order some

Indeed though, they might do a bunch of refrigerator shuffling with buses we currently have to then accommodate the new ones. 

Yea in my mind I think for this order it’ll should be Arrow would get the new Nova hybrids sending the older Nova hybrids out to Malvern along with their artics after finch is converted to LRT then Malvern moved their Nova hybrids and some artics to McNicoll so then McNicoll sends their 3200s to Queensway to replace the 7900-8099 and then mount Dennis gets the new hybrid artics and the xde40s and maybe some of their Nova artics go to Wilson so Wilson can convert the 960 to artics unless they take artics off of Bathurst completely and just use those ones then Mount Dennis would send their artics to Scarborough to replace the SRT. Lol ok I’m done fantasizing on what the TTC should do but probably won’t 

[Xtrazsteve]

Most buses on the SRT won’t be artics. Kennedy and STC can’t handle all of them plus most routes won’t run artics. It will be mainly the 939 Finch express running them and supplement by 134C/913 progress. 
 

I don’t get why you guys keep saying SRT bus replacement cause they aren’t running that but extending routes to Kennedy. 

 

Edit: 985 also runs artics that would be extended to Kennedy.

[MK78]

1 minute ago, Xtrazsteve said:

Most buses on the SRT won’t be artics. Kennedy and STC can’t handle all of them plus most routes won’t run artics. It will be mainly the 939 Finch express running them and supplement by 134C/913 progress.

I think at some point they will be artics, because there will be a temporary terminal for other routes where the parking lot is, and the existing bus bays will be used for artics.

I think there were some plans posted on Steve Munro's site detailing some of the changes after the SRT tracks are removed and there is a dedicated run from Kennedy to Ellesemere.

[GTAmissions1]

37 minutes ago, MK78 said:

I think there were some plans posted on Steve Munro's site detailing some of the changes after the SRT tracks are removed and there is a dedicated run from Kennedy to Ellesemere.

That would be option 1 in today's board meeting where they decide on the option. The trade-off is that it would require at least two to three years so that the old infrastructure can be removed along with widening the right of way to accommodate buses. 

Until that is completed, the other three options are deciding which adjacent roads will the bus replacement shuttle operate on. Kennedy northbound and Midland southbound with limited stops is the highest ranked option based on many different factors such as if the roadway can handle the additional bus capacity. 

Slide deck link here: 

https://ttc-cdn.azureedge.net/-/media/Project/TTC/DevProto/Documents/Home/Public-Meetings/Board/2022/April-14/Presentations/8_Line_3_Bus_Replacement_Study_Final_Recommendation.pdf?rev=632843775db54ba0a328542f53004e85&hash=ADC3FE6096A5164E301280E16B3F6F36

[Xtrazsteve]

18 hours ago, GTAmissions1 said:

That would be option 1 in today's board meeting where they decide on the option. The trade-off is that it would require at least two to three years so that the old infrastructure can be removed along with widening the right of way to accommodate buses. 

Until that is completed, the other three options are deciding which adjacent roads will the bus replacement shuttle operate on. Kennedy northbound and Midland southbound with limited stops is the highest ranked option based on many different factors such as if the roadway can handle the additional bus capacity. 

Slide deck link here: 

https://ttc-cdn.azureedge.net/-/media/Project/TTC/DevProto/Documents/Home/Public-Meetings/Board/2022/April-14/Presentations/8_Line_3_Bus_Replacement_Study_Final_Recommendation.pdf?rev=632843775db54ba0a328542f53004e85&hash=ADC3FE6096A5164E301280E16B3F6F36

The selected bus routes are being extended to Kennedy but will operate on street along Kennedy/Midland till the SRT corridor is ready. The 3 other options aren't dedicated shuttles. You can see that on slide 7 in the presentation where it was 15 to 25 min, which is option 1 vs option 4.

18 hours ago, MK78 said:

I think at some point they will be artics, because there will be a temporary terminal for other routes where the parking lot is, and the existing bus bays will be used for artics.

I think there were some plans posted on Steve Munro's site detailing some of the changes after the SRT tracks are removed and there is a dedicated run from Kennedy to Ellesemere.

The report shows that STC is being rebuilt with 2 new artic bays to a total of 3. I forgot to mention the 985A being artics too earlier. All other routes remain standard length bus bays so I don't anticipate the other routes would be artics. So 38, 129, 131 and 133 would likely remain stand length while 134/913, 939 and 985 could be artics.

Kennedy Station shows 4 artic bays in the current terminal along with 2 artic bays in the temporary terminal. I suppose the terminal is rebuilt for future proof for other routes to be converted to artics (maybe 905) than for the SRT replacement. Evidence is shown that the design shows artics entering/exiting on South Service Rd in the diagram.

Perhaps they could order more artics beyond the 68 next year. They also mention in the past they wanted to test some artic ebus which they haven't oerder yet.

[MCIBUS]

Question?

Is there a date where the TTC is expected to have a entire E-Bus only Fleet?

[Mar_AC_23]

26 minutes ago, MCIBUS said:

Question?

Is there a date where the TTC is expected to have a entire E-Bus only Fleet?

They mentioned the year at the earliest could be by 2037

[Mar_AC_23]

On 4/14/2022 at 9:50 AM, Young said:

Yea in my mind I think for this order it’ll should be Arrow would get the new Nova hybrids sending the older Nova hybrids out to Malvern along with their artics after finch is converted to LRT then Malvern moved their Nova hybrids and some artics to McNicoll so then McNicoll sends their 3200s to Queensway to replace the 7900-8099 and then mount Dennis gets the new hybrid artics and the xde40s and maybe some of their Nova artics go to Wilson so Wilson can convert the 960 to artics unless they take artics off of Bathurst completely and just use those ones then Mount Dennis would send their artics to Scarborough to replace the SRT. Lol ok I’m done fantasizing on what the TTC should do but probably won’t 

I think this order will focus mainly on retiring the Orion OG hybrids and the NG hybrids. The OG diesels that I can see retiring is probably only the airport buses. Their replacements would be 3330-3342. I don't think the artics are expansion units. I believe that they are bus replacements along with the other buses in this order.

For the new 60ft XDE60s, it would be best to give them all to McNicoll for the 939/953, and then their diesel artics can go to Malvern for the 134/913, and 45 of McNicoll's diesels could move to Mount Dennis to begin retiring their Orion hybrids. The 927 would get the diesel artics from the 36 when line 6 opens so Arrow's artics would just stay where they are. The 935 can get artics but that would only work if they removed artics off of Keele completely (41/941/341) because they don't really need them. The 960 could get artics too, they should just remove artics completely from Bathurst and Weston (7/307 and 89) and some of Arrow Rd's artics (maybe 5 of them) can move to Wilson because the 927 might only need 20-25 artics to run the route. Removing artics from those local routes would improve headways and increase the frequency of service.

For the new 40ft LFS HEVs, three scenarios that I can see playing out:

1) nova hybrids are delivered to Malvern and replace all of their Orion hybrids

2) nova hybrids are delivered to Arrow Rd, and 134 buses from the 2019 nova hybrid fleet gets moved to Malvern to replace all of their Orion hybrids

3) nova hybrids are delivered to Eglinton, 134 of their nova diesels move to Arrow Rd, and 134 buses from the 2019 nova hybrid fleet gets moved to Malvern to replace all of their Orion hybrids

For the new 40ft XDE40s, three scenarios that I can see playing out:

1) new flyer hybrids are delivered to Mount Dennis to replace their Orion hybrids

2) new flyer hybrids are delivered to McNicoll and 134 of their nova diesels move to Mount Dennis to replace their Orion hybrids

3) new flyer hybrids are delivered to Eglinton and 134 of their nova diesels move to Mount Dennis to replace their Orion hybrids

For Wilson's Orion hybrids, they could be replaced by nova diesels from Arrow Rd since their fleet is currently over 300 when the most buses they send out for service is between 210 and 220 buses. That just doesn't make sense to me at all.

4 hours ago, Xtrazsteve said:

Perhaps they could order more artics beyond the 68 next year. They also mention in the past they wanted to test some artic ebus which they haven't oerder yet.

That would be interesting. We already know that new flyer has their XE60 electric artic and BYD has their K11M electric artic

[MCIBUS]

Thanks, just about the same time frame for OC I  think if I recall. I'm guessing by 2040-45, that most of Ontario's city owned/run bus systems will have entire fully e-bus fleet, but that's only a guess.

[Orion V]

30 minutes ago, Shemar said:

I think this order will focus mainly on retiring the Orion OG hybrids and the NG hybrids. The OG diesels that I can see retiring is probably only the airport buses. Their replacements would be 3330-3342. I don't think the artics are expansion units. I believe that they are bus replacements along with the other buses in this order.

For the new 60ft XDE60s, it would be best to give them all to McNicoll for the 939/953, and then their diesel artics can go to Malvern for the 134/913, and 45 of McNicoll's diesels could move to Mount Dennis to begin retiring their Orion hybrids. The 927 would get the diesel artics from the 36 when line 6 opens so Arrow's artics would just stay where they are. The 935 can get artics but that would only work if they removed artics off of Keele completely (41/941/341) because they don't really need them. The 960 could get artics too, they should just remove artics completely from Bathurst and Weston (7/307 and 89) and some of Arrow Rd's artics (maybe 5 of them) can move to Wilson because the 927 might only need 20-25 artics to run the route. Removing artics from those local routes would improve headways and increase the frequency of service.

For the new 40ft LFS HEVs, three scenarios that I can see playing out:

1) nova hybrids are delivered to Malvern and replace all of their Orion hybrids

2) nova hybrids are delivered to Arrow Rd, and 134 buses from the 2019 nova hybrid fleet gets moved to Malvern to replace all of their Orion hybrids

3) nova hybrids are delivered to Eglinton, 134 of their nova diesels move to Arrow Rd, and 134 buses from the 2019 nova hybrid fleet gets moved to Malvern to replace all of their Orion hybrids

For the new 40ft XDE40s, three scenarios that I can see playing out:

1) new flyer hybrids are delivered to Mount Dennis to replace their Orion hybrids

2) new flyer hybrids are delivered to McNicoll and 134 of their nova diesels move to Mount Dennis to replace their Orion hybrids

3) new flyer hybrids are delivered to Eglinton and 134 of their nova diesels move to Mount Dennis to replace their Orion hybrids

For Wilson's Orion hybrids, they could be replaced by nova diesels from Arrow Rd since their fleet is currently over 300 when the most buses they send out for service is between 210 and 220 buses. That just doesn't make sense to me at all.

That would be interesting. We already know that new flyer has their XE60 electric artic and BYD has their K11M electric artic

K11M! LMAO

What could be worse than a 40ft BYD model... one with an articulation joint in the middle of them! 

[Young]

29 minutes ago, Shemar said:

I think this order will focus mainly on retiring the Orion OG hybrids and the NG hybrids. The OG diesels that I can see retiring is probably only the airport buses. Their replacements would be 3330-3342. I don't think the artics are expansion units. I believe that they are bus replacements along with the other buses in this order.

For the new 60ft XDE60s, it would be best to give them all to McNicoll for the 939/953, and then their diesel artics can go to Malvern for the 134/913, and 45 of McNicoll's diesels could move to Mount Dennis to begin retiring their Orion hybrids. The 927 would get the diesel artics from the 36 when line 6 opens so Arrow's artics would just stay where they are. The 935 can get artics but that would only work if they removed artics off of Keele completely (41/941/341) because they don't really need them. The 960 could get artics too, they should just remove artics completely from Bathurst and Weston (7/307 and 89) and some of Arrow Rd's artics (maybe 5 of them) can move to Wilson because the 927 might only need 20-25 artics to run the route. Removing artics from those local routes would improve headways and increase the frequency of service.

For the new 40ft LFS HEVs, three scenarios that I can see playing out:

1) nova hybrids are delivered to Malvern and replace all of their Orion hybrids

2) nova hybrids are delivered to Arrow Rd, and 134 buses from the 2019 nova hybrid fleet gets moved to Malvern to replace all of their Orion hybrids

3) nova hybrids are delivered to Eglinton, 134 of their nova diesels move to Arrow Rd, and 134 buses from the 2019 nova hybrid fleet gets moved to Malvern to replace all of their Orion hybrids

For the new 40ft XDE40s, three scenarios that I can see playing out:

1) new flyer hybrids are delivered to Mount Dennis to replace their Orion hybrids

2) new flyer hybrids are delivered to McNicoll and 134 of their nova diesels move to Mount Dennis to replace their Orion hybrids

3) new flyer hybrids are delivered to Eglinton and 134 of their nova diesels move to Mount Dennis to replace their Orion hybrids

For Wilson's Orion hybrids, they could be replaced by nova diesels from Arrow Rd since their fleet is currently over 300 when the most buses they send out for service is between 210 and 220 buses. That just doesn't make sense to me at all.

That would be interesting. We already know that new flyer has their XE60 electric artic and BYD has their K11M electric artic

I don’t think Mount Dennis would get diesels cause it’s a hybrid and artic division I read because it runs through neighborhoods that are quiet and the diesel pollution isn’t the best in those neighborhoods that’s was what I saw years back on this forum but I’m not 100% if that’s the case now

[Xtrazsteve]

11 hours ago, Young said:

I don’t think Mount Dennis would get diesels cause it’s a hybrid and artic division I read because it runs through neighborhoods that are quiet and the diesel pollution isn’t the best in those neighborhoods that’s was what I saw years back on this forum but I’m not 100% if that’s the case now

The current artics are the biggest diesel drinker in the fleet. It’s not like the OG hybrids were really that efficient.