TTC T6H-5307N 2252 Posted June 10, 2019 Report Share Posted June 10, 2019 18 minutes ago, FlyerD901 said: It might not make a difference, but TTCs Nova may be spec differently, and so the results might not be the same. But if they're garbage, oh well, we're use to it. Could see XDE40S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meltingtomato Posted June 10, 2019 Report Share Posted June 10, 2019 20 minutes ago, TTC T6H-5307N 2252 said: Could see XDE40S In theory, wouldn't the two perform almost identically? Same engine/hybrid system, roughly same weight, possibly only minor aerodynamic design differences. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xtrazsteve Posted June 11, 2019 Report Share Posted June 11, 2019 The CEO report also claims the Nova HEVs are reliable. I would really like to see what happens a year later. Of course they need to list each fleet separately instead of using diesel stats to cover up for the hybrids. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Someguy3071 Posted June 11, 2019 Report Share Posted June 11, 2019 10 hours ago, Xtrazsteve said: In the recent TTC CEO report, it claims the nova HEV are on target with fuel savings. I can tell you that diesel Novas show fuel consumption in the low 50 litres per 100 km, most hybrid Novas are in high 30's and low 40's. I've had one down to 27.6L/100 km over a distance of about 17 km, when I was deadheading. So they can be very efficient. Now these numbers are what the bus shows on the display. Actual amount of fuel used might be slightly different. 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xtrazsteve Posted June 11, 2019 Report Share Posted June 11, 2019 2 hours ago, Someguy3071 said: I can tell you that diesel Novas show fuel consumption in the low 50 litres per 100 km, most hybrid Novas are in high 30's and low 40's. I've had one down to 27.6L/100 km over a distance of about 17 km, when I was deadheading. So they can be very efficient. Now these numbers are what the bus shows on the display. Actual amount of fuel used might be slightly different. That's good to know. Keep us updated when it's AC season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Someguy3071 Posted June 11, 2019 Report Share Posted June 11, 2019 This is an from an artic. Thirsty beasts. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bus_Medic Posted June 11, 2019 Report Share Posted June 11, 2019 2 hours ago, Someguy3071 said: This is an from an artic. Thirsty beasts. Bear in mind that is the average including the obscene amount of static idling time our vehicles see. The stop/go of transit service almost deliberately forces one to drive the vehicle in the most inefficient manner possible. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris.A Posted June 12, 2019 Report Share Posted June 12, 2019 You guys need to go back to CNG. Just saying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bus_Medic Posted June 12, 2019 Report Share Posted June 12, 2019 1 hour ago, Chris.A said: You guys need to go back to CNG. Just saying. https://www.ttc.ca/About_the_TTC/Commission_reports_and_information/Commission_meetings/2018/June_12/Reports/27_Green_Bus_Technology_Plan_Update.pdf The option was explored and shelved. Steve Munro goes into greater detail about the how’s and why nots of that decision in the bottom 1/3 of this blog post: https://stevemunro.ca/2018/06/11/ttc-plans-for-a-zero-emission-bus-fleet/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meltingtomato Posted June 12, 2019 Report Share Posted June 12, 2019 15 minutes ago, Chris.A said: You guys need to go back to CNG. Just saying. Would be interesting to see how the HSR's fleet does fuel mileage wise, but by that same token, if CNG is that great, why does Hamilton go back and forth between the two? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lip Posted June 12, 2019 Report Share Posted June 12, 2019 ^They've been ordering CNG buses since 2015, and all future buses orders for the foreseeable future will be of this type. The reason why there was a pause before that was because the HSR was evaluating the sustainability of continuing with CNG bus purchases for a couple reasons (mainly HSR CNG related infrastructure issues, and natural gas prices). 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bus_Medic Posted June 12, 2019 Report Share Posted June 12, 2019 31 minutes ago, meltingtomato said: Would be interesting to see how the HSR's fleet does fuel mileage wise, but by that same token, if CNG is that great, why does Hamilton go back and forth between the two? I don’t have easy access to the current figures, but the operation costs per kilometre may actually be closer between the two than it would appear on the surface. for instance, CNG pros would be: -elimination of particulate filters, DEF tanks and equipment from the vehicles, increasing day to day reliability. -relatively low cost per cubic metre, the ability to be produced domestically, price being theoretically less affected by international politics...but since they’re a bulk customer locked into long term contracts, that’s less of a concern. -pipeline delivery right to the maintenance facility virtually guarantees an inexhaustible supply. cons: -reduced engine lifespan between major overhauls. -the need to hydrostatically certify onboard pressure tanks. -technicians must be specially trained and certified. Re certification can be an ongoing expense, although minor in the grand scheme of things. -reduced energy density can limit range. -maintenance facility electrical systems must be rated for explosive environments, or de-fuelling must be done before the bus can be shoved inside, and obviously complicates running the engine indoors for diagnostic purposes. Obviously Hamilton has swallowed that costly pill already. - indoor stations must also have the same vapour tight and spark proof rating (this was, and would continue to be a severe handicap to operational flexibility in Toronto, less so for Hamilton) Much of the financial attraction to pursue CNG on incoming orders may have everything to do with the cubic metre rate that’s agreed upon as their multi year contract with their supplier comes up for renewal, but that’s an educated guess on my part. edit: Lip appears to have a more succinct explanation. 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris.A Posted June 12, 2019 Report Share Posted June 12, 2019 1 hour ago, meltingtomato said: Would be interesting to see how the HSR's fleet does fuel mileage wise, but by that same token, if CNG is that great, why does Hamilton go back and forth between the two? I actually was talking about TTC's bus fleet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrandeWest_B35G Posted June 12, 2019 Report Share Posted June 12, 2019 Does Hamilton use RNG? Edit: I swear I clicked on the HSR thread Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bus_Medic Posted June 12, 2019 Report Share Posted June 12, 2019 8 hours ago, Imgursdownvote4love said: Does Hamilton use RNG? Edit: I swear I clicked on the HSR thread They utilize CNG supplied by union gas. In actual practice, there wouldn’t be a dedicated RNG pipe or tank on site. It would be more like the money the HSR pays would go towards producing the RNG gas, and feeding it into the greater grid, much like bullfrog power does with renewable electricity. Again, credit goes to Steve Munro: 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Someguy3071 Posted June 12, 2019 Report Share Posted June 12, 2019 15 hours ago, Bus_Medic said: Bear in mind that is the average including the obscene amount of static idling time our vehicles see. The stop/go of transit service almost deliberately forces one to drive the vehicle in the most inefficient manner possible. Absolutely right! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meltingtomato Posted June 12, 2019 Report Share Posted June 12, 2019 13 hours ago, Chris.A said: I actually was talking about TTC's bus fleet. Yes, but given that they have otherwise a somewhat comparable fleet (Nova L9 for TTC vs L9G for HSR), the question about fuel efficiency makes sense. The additional point about why the HSR went back and forth between CNG and diesel was my curiosity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Someguy3071 Posted June 15, 2019 Report Share Posted June 15, 2019 On 6/11/2019 at 3:38 AM, Xtrazsteve said: That's good to know. Keep us updated when it's AC season. This of from a hybrid Nova. I don't know how much A/C was used though. But as you can see that over 8000 km this bus averaged 40.6L per100 km. I wonder if Montreal buses are optioned differently to cause high fuel consumption. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BusFreak93 Posted June 15, 2019 Report Share Posted June 15, 2019 On 6/10/2019 at 2:49 PM, Xtrazsteve said: https://montrealgazette.com/news/local-news/fuel-savings-of-stms-hybrid-buses-less-than-half-what-was-promised-documents-show STM in Montreal says the nova HEV are basically the same crap the TTC experienced with the Orion VII hybrids. Fuel savings isn't there, battery doesn't work well in extremely cold, AC makes them consume more fuel and etc. They fooled the city for paying for a bunch of lemons. In the recent TTC CEO report, it claims the nova HEV are on target with fuel savings. Now I wonder if they are playing the same card. Will they buy more on 2021? I don't think STMs have the same start/stop technology ours have (at least yet). However the other thing to note is their fuel use comparison is with their diesel buses that they do not order with A/C. Hybrids have A/C standard as there must be a cooling option for the batteries. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xtrazsteve Posted June 15, 2019 Report Share Posted June 15, 2019 It's certainly interesting to hear that their diesels without AC averages the same as TTC's diesels with AC. I always doubted any battery technology would work well in Montreal. Their winters are just too cold. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andythagiant Posted June 15, 2019 Report Share Posted June 15, 2019 10 hours ago, Someguy3071 said: This of from a hybrid Nova. I don't know how much A/C was used though. But as you can see that over 8000 km this bus averaged 40.6L per100 km. I wonder if Montreal buses are optioned differently to cause high fuel consumption. I’m surprised by the low km’s on the artic compared to the new hybrid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bus_7246 Posted June 15, 2019 Report Share Posted June 15, 2019 18 minutes ago, Andythagiant said: I’m surprised by the low km’s on the artic compared to the new hybrid. Keep in mind that Malvern’s artics don’t see weekend use often. Maybe the odd shuttle or extra runs, but a rarity in regular weekend service. The former Wilson artics probably have the highest mileage Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelvin3157 Posted June 15, 2019 Report Share Posted June 15, 2019 27 minutes ago, bus_7246 said: Keep in mind that Malvern’s artics don’t see weekend use often. Maybe the odd shuttle or extra runs, but a rarity in regular weekend service. The former Wilson artics probably have the highest mileage But they're on the 985 on weekends, not really a rarity There's some out right now Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bus_Medic Posted June 15, 2019 Report Share Posted June 15, 2019 2 hours ago, Kelvin3157 said: But they're on the 985 on weekends, not really a rarity There's some out right now That’s only a relatively recent development. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TTC T6H-5307N 2252 Posted June 15, 2019 Report Share Posted June 15, 2019 MiWay, Zum, YRT and HSR uses artics on weekends 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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