Réseau express métropolitain (REM)

[webfil]

Bill 137, basically a bill regarding the authorization for the Caisse to build and operate a transit network, was passed yesterday. MTMDET says a progressive debut of the operations is still possible in 2020.

http://montrealgazette.com/news/quebec-adopts-fast-track-legislation-for-electric-train-project

[SMS]

On 28/09/2017 at 9:28 AM, webfil said:

Bill 137, basically a bill regarding the authorization for the Caisse to build and operate a transit network, was passed yesterday. MTMDET says a progressive debut of the operations is still possible in 2020.

http://montrealgazette.com/news/quebec-adopts-fast-track-legislation-for-electric-train-project

Money talks and BS walks! We'll see eh? Here's hoping that this crap receives the same attention as Autoroute 13 extension to Aéroport Mirabel, yellow line extension to McGill, via-bus project to the east end, and other mothballed projects.

[cprail]

It's a little late for that... financing is secured, contracts should be signed later this month or at the beginning of November. With full backing from the current government and little opposition, the REM is basically a done deal.

[webfil]

 

[webfil]

The mont Royal tunnel will be renovated in order to allow "interoperability" between VIA trains and the LRT (will that maintain Mascouche trains to downtown? that's unspecified). Peel station is eliminated. Tunnel through old dump is eliminated. Costs are cut back 300 M$.

http://www.lapresse.ca/actualites/grand-montreal/201802/08/01-5153069-reseau-electrique-metropolitain-un-trace-modifie-et-moins-couteux.php

[webfil]

Other major anouncements :

• Alstom and SNC-Lavalin are the winning consortia leaders;
• Name changes to Réseau express métropolitain (makes sense, as the project mostly recuperates the orginal 1970's REM idea);
• Work is set to begin in April. Operations are set to begin in 2021;
• Changes to routing : 
  • will run along CN ROW between Champlain bridge and gare Centrale. No tunnel needed, no relocation of main water supply, Peel station built overground, instead of under the canal: major cost cut. This was planned in order to serve an eventual baseball stadium for a non-existing major league team ;
  • A-13 station and A-13 tunnel is eliminated in east Pierrefonds. Trains will follow exact actual Doney Spur routing instead of pre-1971 routing:
• Creation of MtlInfra.co to manage the Gare Centrale hub assets (the station itself and its southern approaches + tunnel du mont Royal) and create an exchange platform between the REM, RTM, STM, Via Rail and Amtrak;
• Passenger-km subsidy is now estimated at 72¢/km, which, in comparison is 3 times less than original UPX subsidy (2,16 $/km).

https://www.cdpqinfra.com/en/reseau-express-metropolitain-project-officially-launches

[SMS]

On the bright side, one more year* of bus operations along the Champlain Bridge for RTL (and CIT) bus drivers! 

* at least

[dowlingm]

The current exit from Centrale is 4 tracks, narrowing to two past Wellington Tower, then four again over the bridge, and splitting 2/2 towards Dorval and Victoria Bridge.

Questions:

1. The viaduct would definitely need to be widened and I believe REM have already said as much. The question is how much and where, and does Wellington Tower in particular need to be shifted west (and the swing bridge removed). I think 6 tracks would actually be doable based only on Google overheads with the exception of the building at the corner of Rue Ann and Rue Brennan.

2. How does REM get from the viaduct exist past the Pointe-Saint-Charles yard to the Champlain Bridge? 

[Transit geek]

On ‎2018‎-‎02‎-‎08 at 8:46 AM, webfil said:

The mont Royal tunnel will be renovated in order to allow "interoperability" between VIA trains and the LRT (will that maintain Mascouche trains to downtown? that's unspecified). Peel station is eliminated. Tunnel through old dump is eliminated. Costs are cut back 300 M$.

http://www.lapresse.ca/actualites/grand-montreal/201802/08/01-5153069-reseau-electrique-metropolitain-un-trace-modifie-et-moins-couteux.php

A very curious situation with a number of existent possibilities. First, that one tunnel be used for REM and the other for VIA, though the length and service frequency would make a single-track line rather impossible. It's almost certain that heavy rail and automated rapid transit would have to share the same tracks. Also, there could be time separation, which would limit other services to use the REM's tracks through the tunnel only when REM is not running, but that would prove to be incredibly inflexible. It's almost certainly implied that there would be VIA trains squished in between the REM trains, requiring the sophisticated employment of CBTC/PTC to avoid collisions. Of course, there are many years to go to realize this.

(P.S. for those who can't really read French, the Montreal Journal reported on this issue as well.)

http://montrealgazette.com/news/local-news/under-vias-plan-quebec-to-windor-travel-would-involve-the-rem

http://montrealgazette.com/news/local-news/montreals-light-rail-project-to-break-ground-in-april-start-rolling-in-2021

[anyfong]

1 hour ago, Transit geek said:

A very curious situation with a number of existent possibilities. First, that one tunnel be used for REM and the other for VIA, though the length and service frequency would make a single-track line rather impossible. It's almost certain that heavy rail and automated rapid transit would have to share the same tracks. Also, there could be time separation, which would limit other services to use the REM's tracks through the tunnel only when REM is not running, but that would prove to be incredibly inflexible. It's almost certainly implied that there would be VIA trains squished in between the REM trains, requiring the sophisticated employment of CBTC/PTC to avoid collisions. Of course, there are many years to go to realize this.

(P.S. for those who can't really read French, the Montreal Journal reported on this issue as well.)

http://montrealgazette.com/news/local-news/under-vias-plan-quebec-to-windor-travel-would-involve-the-rem

http://montrealgazette.com/news/local-news/montreals-light-rail-project-to-break-ground-in-april-start-rolling-in-2021

Regarding the sharing of rapid transit and intercity trains on the same track, the East Rail Line in Hong Kong does that. The rapid transit trains on that line operate at 5 minute intervals while the intercity trains run at hourly intervals. So whenever an intercity train passes through the station without stopping, one would be waiting 10 minutes (instead of 5 minutes) for a rapid transit train as the intercity trains are scheduled 5 minutes behind and 5 minutes in front of rapid transit trains. I don't see any problem of sharing REM and VIA trains in the tunnel, though as VIA trains are push-pull trains they accelerate much slower than the REM trains which are multiple units. In the case of Hong Kong, they're building a new express intercity train line and increasing the frequency of the East Rail Line which leads to their long term plan of removing intercity trains entirely.

[Transit geek]

14 hours ago, anyfong said:

Regarding the sharing of rapid transit and intercity trains on the same track, the East Rail Line in Hong Kong does that. The rapid transit trains on that line operate at 5 minute intervals while the intercity trains run at hourly intervals. So whenever an intercity train passes through the station without stopping, one would be waiting 10 minutes (instead of 5 minutes) for a rapid transit train as the intercity trains are scheduled 5 minutes behind and 5 minutes in front of rapid transit trains. I don't see any problem of sharing REM and VIA trains in the tunnel, though as VIA trains are push-pull trains they accelerate much slower than the REM trains which are multiple units. In the case of Hong Kong, they're building a new express intercity train line and increasing the frequency of the East Rail Line which leads to their long term plan of removing intercity trains entirely.

Yes, I'm aware of that. But Montreal is way different: the REM light metro trains are almost certainly to use CBTC, and unless they could get the VIA trains to operate on CBTC (the closest I think would be ETCS in Europe) there would be many technical challenges with incompatible signal systems. That is exactly the case for the ERL in HK, which uses TBL while intercity trains use AWS. But MTR is replacing TBL with Siemens CBTC on the ERL in conjunction with the cross-harbour extension, making it interoperable with the AWS used by intercity trains - at least until the high-speed line opens, at which point they'll decide whether to abandon the conventional service.

Back to Montreal. More importantly than signalling, REM trains are to be driverless, and that implies either unattended trains or a roaming attendant for the sake of merely monitoring passengers. Either way, there would be no driver at the front to watch the track and stop the train in an emergency, as there are in HK. Sharing the track with heavy-rail intercity trains, especially in an enclosed tunnel without diesel exhaust ventilation, would make no sense. There are cases where driverless and manually-operated trains operated simultaneously on the same infrastructure, such as Paris and Nuremberg, but they have all been interim measures while the manned trains were gradually phased out.

[dowlingm]

15 hours ago, anyfong said:

Regarding the sharing of rapid transit and intercity trains on the same track, the East Rail Line in Hong Kong does that. The rapid transit trains on that line operate at 5 minute intervals while the intercity trains run at hourly intervals. So whenever an intercity train passes through the station without stopping, one would be waiting 10 minutes (instead of 5 minutes) for a rapid transit train as the intercity trains are scheduled 5 minutes behind and 5 minutes in front of rapid transit trains. I don't see any problem of sharing REM and VIA trains in the tunnel, though as VIA trains are push-pull trains they accelerate much slower than the REM trains which are multiple units. In the case of Hong Kong, they're building a new express intercity train line and increasing the frequency of the East Rail Line which leads to their long term plan of removing intercity trains entirely.

The issue here is that REM need to use rolling stock light enough to be used on the Champlain Bridge but heavy enough to coexist with some form of VIA trainset, at least in the Mont Royal Tunnel. With high end train control VIA and REM could coexist BUT likely not with existing VIA rolling stock so the Hervey Junction trains would probably run exactly as they do now. 

One additional wrinkle - REM might be able to get VIA and AMT to adopt new train control systems, but what about Adirondack (and Vermonter, whenever that happens), not just for station access but also MMC for servicing? I guess VIA could take over the power from Saint-Jean-sur-Richelieu to Montreal as it does in Niagara Falls but that throws away a chunk of the whole point of doing customs etc. 

19 minutes ago, Transit geek said:

Sharing the track with heavy-rail intercity trains, especially in an enclosed tunnel without diesel exhaust ventilation, would make no sense. 

A variant of the Bombardier B82500 AGC could probably check the necessary boxes:

• compatible with all necessary sensor and control requirements for CBTC
• able to run on diesel, 1.5kV DC (REM) and 25kV AC (ARTM)
• designed under European Railway Agency Technical Specifications for Interoperability (including "SAFETY IN RAILWAY TUNNELS" http://www.era.europa.eu/Document-Register/Documents/ERA-CON-2012-05-INT.pdf )
• jobs for La Pocatiere which just got stiffed by the Caisse

The problem would be the level of redesign required to run on the general mainline with conventional VIA/ARTM equipment. (Oh, also giving VIA the money to buy them)

[webfil]

There are active representations in order to ensure continuous Train de l'Est service to Gare Centrale. One of the possible solutions is that the Mascouche line could use the shared tracks sections. Another solution proposed is the use of a "bypass", which would probably mean trains via Taschereaau and PSC yards ― a no-go, IMHO. 

https://www.hebdorivenord.com/actualites/2018/4/5/reseau-express-metropolitain-et-train-de-l-est.html

[SMS]

In this era of fake news (nothing new either), I am very discerning about the manner in which I read news. I am very skeptical about the conclusions drawn in this article:

http://montrealgazette.com/news/local-news/no-rem-train-line-will-not-restrict-montreal-transit-services-mayors-insist 

The fact that CDPQ Infra (not even mentioned per se in the article) desires non-compete clauses disgusts me. Transit needs to integrate, not isolate. I can understand that they would want several RTL bus routes for instance to serve Panama Station but Métro Longueuil still requires status quo service at a bare minimum. There are various trip generators in the Longueuil agglomeration (CEGEP, Pratt & Whitney, hospitals, distribution centres, ...) that are situated too far from REM stations to have their services mercilessly reduced. 

[novalfs26001]

1 hour ago, SMS said:

In this era of fake news (nothing new either), I am very discerning about the manner in which I read news. I am very skeptical about the conclusions drawn in this article:

http://montrealgazette.com/news/local-news/no-rem-train-line-will-not-restrict-montreal-transit-services-mayors-insist 

The fact that CDPQ Infra (not even mentioned per se in the article) desires non-compete clauses disgusts me. Transit needs to integrate, not isolate. I can understand that they would want several RTL bus routes for instance to serve Panama Station but Métro Longueuil still requires status quo service at a bare minimum. There are various trip generators in the Longueuil agglomeration (CEGEP, Pratt & Whitney, hospitals, distribution centres, ...) that are situated too far from REM stations to have their services mercilessly reduced. 

I agree. Passengers are going to get royally ripped off by this non-competition clause. People who used express lines like the 470 and 485 which allowed west-island residents to travel to the city or downtown on a “STM” fare will now have to transfer to the REM and pay their fare which will be at least a zone 2 or 3 fare, depending on where you’re starting. Those travelling between the south shore and downtown on an “RTL” fare, and who have a 1 seat ride at rush hour face the same problem. 

[FelixINX]

The ground-breaking ceremony of the REM is tomorrow!

[Mark Walton]

On ‎4‎/‎9‎/‎2018 at 9:42 PM, novalfs26001 said:

I agree. Passengers are going to get royally ripped off by this non-competition clause. People who used express lines like the 470 and 485 which allowed west-island residents to travel to the city or downtown on a “STM” fare will now have to transfer to the REM and pay their fare which will be at least a zone 2 or 3 fare, depending on where you’re starting. Those travelling between the south shore and downtown on an “RTL” fare, and who have a 1 seat ride at rush hour face the same problem. 

Could the "confidential agreement" be the reason why ARTM (and RTM) board meetings are in camera under their respective Acts? Except for one public meeting a year, and for RTM, any time a bond issue is involved. In both cases the internal bylaw provides for a one-hour question period, like STM/STL/RTL board meetings. The Acts and internal bylaws are all available on the respective web sites.

[Transit geek]

On ‎2018‎-‎02‎-‎10 at 12:50 PM, dowlingm said:

The issue here is that REM need to use rolling stock light enough to be used on the Champlain Bridge but heavy enough to coexist with some form of VIA trainset, at least in the Mont Royal Tunnel. With high end train control VIA and REM could coexist BUT likely not with existing VIA rolling stock so the Hervey Junction trains would probably run exactly as they do now. 

Confirmed: Alstom Metropolis trains for the network. http://www.alstom.com/press-centre/2018/04/alstom-led-consortium-to-provide-complete-driverless-light-metro-system-for-montreal/

Oddly enough, artist renderings of the line (such as this one) show the use of low-floor vehicles closer to the Citadis Spirit. But considering that full-sized VIA equipment will need to use the line concurrently, this all makes perfect sense now. Now if only updated renderings can be produced.

[anyfong]

13 hours ago, Transit geek said:

Confirmed: Alstom Metropolis trains for the network. http://www.alstom.com/press-centre/2018/04/alstom-led-consortium-to-provide-complete-driverless-light-metro-system-for-montreal/

Oddly enough, artist renderings of the line (such as this one) show the use of low-floor vehicles closer to the Citadis Spirit. But considering that full-sized VIA equipment will need to use the line concurrently, this all makes perfect sense now. Now if only updated renderings can be produced.

My guess is that the actual trains will look very similar to the new Sydney Metro, first stage set to open next year. It is also the Alstom Metropolis model and is driverless and use overhead lines, and part of it will also be converted from a double decker commuter train line, shortening headways from 15 minutes to 2 minutes.

Still really don't get why the media still refers to it as light rail, which in reality it will be a full sized rapid transit system.

 

 

[Orcair]

9 minutes ago, anyfong said:

My guess is that the actual trains will look very similar to the new Sydney Metro, first stage set to open next year. It is also the Alstom Metropolis model and is driverless and use overhead lines, and part of it will also be converted from a double decker commuter train line, shortening headways from 15 minutes to 2 minutes.

Still really don't get why the media still refers to it as light rail, which in reality it will be a full sized rapid transit system.

 

 

Since the ones in Sydney are also being built in India, that would make even more sense 

[anyfong]

Just now, Orcair said:

Since the ones in Sydney are also being built in India, that would make even more sense 

Alstom still has a facility in Valenciennes, France, and similar trains for Singapore were also built there. There's also the possibility of Alstom having the trains assembled locally in Montreal, similar to what Ottawa did for the Citadis trains.

[Orcair]

1 minute ago, anyfong said:

Alstom still has a facility in Valenciennes, France, and similar trains for Singapore were also built there. There's also the possibility of Alstom having the trains assembled locally in Montreal, similar to what Ottawa did for the Citadis trains.

As in they would be manufactured in India, packaged for shipment and then re-assembled locally?

https://ici.radio-canada.ca/nouvelle/1094753/debut-travaux-rem-reseau-express-metropolitain-premiere-pelletee-terre-trains-inde-alstom

[anyfong]

Just now, Orcair said:

As in they would be manufactured in India, packaged for shipment and then re-assembled locally?

https://ici.radio-canada.ca/nouvelle/1094753/debut-travaux-rem-reseau-express-metropolitain-premiere-pelletee-terre-trains-inde-alstom

Quite possibly.

[Transit geek]

9 hours ago, anyfong said:

Alstom still has a facility in Valenciennes, France, and similar trains for Singapore were also built there. There's also the possibility of Alstom having the trains assembled locally in Montreal, similar to what Ottawa did for the Citadis trains.

Don't forget, too, that Singapore later ordered additional Metropolis trains largely identical to the ones built in France, but made in China instead by the same partnership that built trains for the Shanghai Metro and other Chinese metros. Chinese-made trains would pair well with the upcoming Tangshan coaches for the RTM - ironically, Sydney's latest-generation commuter trains were manufactured in China and later assembled locally. The first generation trains were delivered from 2011 and a second generation has been recently unveiled:

 

[smallspy]

On 4/14/2018 at 10:55 AM, anyfong said:

Still really don't get why the media still refers to it as light rail, which in reality it will be a full sized rapid transit system.

Because it is light rail when compared to the "heavy rail" North American rail system that currently uses the Deux Montagnes line.

 

Dan