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Delivery of some LRT vehicles to be delayed for ION


TheAverageJoe
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Waterloo Region’s order of ION vehicles, could be a little short.

Bombardier now confirming, the first train for the LRT, will be delayed by about two months.

Regional Councillor, Tom Galloway telling The Record there’s concern, but says the delay is quite manageable at this point and it won’t impact the set rollout schedule for the fall of 2017.

Another LRT vehicle’s arrival could be delayed, on the back end of project.

http://www.570news.com/2016/04/13/delivery-of-some-lrt-vehicles-to-be-delayed/

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On 2016-04-15 at 5:03 AM, 2281 said:

Oh well.

Even to the most casual observer the project is quite obviously behind schedule - significantly behind schedule - whether the Region and Grandlinq wants to admit it or not.

 

Really? Based on what, exactly?

 

I consider myself to be a bit more than just a "casual" observer, and with the exception of the King Street underpass - were my concern is more of dealing with such a massive project in such a short amount of time - I wouldn't say that the construction of the system is behind schedule at all.

 

Dan

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On 2016/4/15 at 11:09 PM, TTC 9701 said:

And theyll be next to get sued by a transit system.

wondering at this moment (TTC, Metrolinx, ION's order all delayed) whether bombardier will first build the streetcars for ttc to try to make things on schedule then consider ION?

what's the number ION ordered?

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  • 1 month later...
  • 2 months later...

Hello..

So what's up with Bombardier?

I'm a Ctrain operator for Calgary Transit. Recently I drove Siemens new S200 LRV. It's very impressive and at least five years ahead of its time. These vehicles were ordered back in 2012 and we are receiving 63 of these units. They have been designed from the ground up and delivered pretty much on time. 

Some of our customers are saying we we didn't go Bombardier.... and I was one of them at the time and now and I can see why. Now I'm glad to see how good Siemens is to deal with personally working closely with one of there engineers of the S200.

We have received 8 vehicles since January of this year and the 9th one on its way and on "track" on surpassing the amount of TTCs steet cars recieved in the less amount of time. 

Our previous order of 38 SD160 cars again on time and delivered within a year or so. And same with the orders prior with that.

Also l, from what I understand amount of money spent on these Flexity cars are almost double from what Calgary spent on the S200 vehicles....Calgary spent 3.7 million each vehicle this is what we got...

 

20160811_133042.jpg

20160502_204615.jpg

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3 hours ago, LRT said:

Hello..

So what's up with Bombardier?

I'm a Ctrain operator for Calgary Transit. Recently I drove Siemens new S200 LRV. It's very impressive and at least five years ahead of its time. These vehicles were ordered back in 2012 and we are receiving 63 of these units. They have been designed from the ground up and delivered pretty much on time. 

Some of our customers are saying we we didn't go Bombardier.... and I was one of them at the time and now and I can see why. Now I'm glad to see how good Siemens is to deal with personally working closely with one of there engineers of the S200.

We have received 8 vehicles since January of this year and the 9th one on its way and on "track" on surpassing the amount of TTCs steet cars recieved in the less amount of time. 

Our previous order of 38 SD160 cars again on time and delivered within a year or so. And same with the orders prior with that.

Also l, from what I understand amount of money spent on these Flexity cars are almost double from what Calgary spent on the S200 vehicles....Calgary spent 3.7 million each vehicle this is what we got...

 

20160811_133042.jpg

20160502_204615.jpg

It's really just unique to the LRV production for Toronto. After a brief delay, the Toronto Rocket subway cars are being delivered regularly and largely on time. GO Transit's new CEM BiLevels are also being delivered on a regular basis. We have around 30 of them and delivery began in mid-2015.

Based on news I've read, I think the issues come from having a product line that is new to their facility, both in Sahagun and Thunder Bay. There could be a number of things that come up in the process of beginning production of these cars. Some of the issues with Toronto's legacy cars included fit and finish as well as component design.

I can't comment of the price since I don't know the rationale behind the number. But I can say that the proposals submitted by Bombardier and Siemens in 2009 were $993,008,166 and $1,525,832,084, respectively.

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1 hour ago, ADB said:

It's really just unique to the LRV production for Toronto. After a brief delay, the Toronto Rocket subway cars are being delivered regularly and largely on time. GO Transit's new CEM BiLevels are also being delivered on a regular basis. We have around 30 of them and delivery began in mid-2015.

Based on news I've read, I think the issues come from having a product line that is new to their facility, both in Sahagun and Thunder Bay. There could be a number of things that come up in the process of beginning production of these cars. Some of the issues with Toronto's legacy cars included fit and finish as well as component design.

I can't comment of the price since I don't know the rationale behind the number. But I can say that the proposals submitted by Bombardier and Siemens in 2009 were $993,008,166 and $1,525,832,084, respectively.

Good points made. But Bombardier should of realized all the unique challenges before they bid on the tender on a business point of view. 

Now there's a legal mater underway between TTC and Bombardier there must be more to it.

Are there any pics available on the new LRT / LRV vehicle under construction? All I can find is the demo unit that was traveling across Canada. It was in Calgary and Edmonton a few years back.... very impressive lrv. The rep mentioned it would be built into a real car one day.... not sure if he was referring to a TTC car or other vehicle.

I also was lucky enough to ride the Flexity car in Vancouver during the 2010 winter Olympics. Now that's an LRV! Leather seats, wood paneling.. obviously a different division of Bombardier. Made in Europe..

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27 minutes ago, LRT said:

Good points made. But Bombardier should of realized all the unique challenges before they bid on the tender on a business point of view. 

Now there's a legal mater underway between TTC and Bombardier there must be more to it.

Someone more privy to the details of the contract and the situation may be able to elaborate more on that. Maybe @smallspy?

30 minutes ago, LRT said:

Are there any pics available on the new LRT / LRV vehicle under construction? All I can find is the demo unit that was traveling across Canada. It was in Calgary and Edmonton a few years back.... very impressive lrv. The rep mentioned it would be built into a real car one day.... not sure if he was referring to a TTC car or other vehicle.

Metrolinx's latest report has some photos of the prototype being constructed in their quarterly report.

Flexity construction.jpg

I think the rep probably meant they will go into production one day, which is happening now. That hard mock-up was initially used to showcase the vehicles that will be used on Toronto's new LRT lines. Metrolinx has adopted this vehicle for other LRT lines in the province.

37 minutes ago, LRT said:

I also was lucky enough to ride the Flexity car in Vancouver during the 2010 winter Olympics. Now that's an LRV! Leather seats, wood paneling.. obviously a different division of Bombardier. Made in Europe..

That was indeed a well appointed vehicle.

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1 hour ago, ADB said:

Someone more privy to the details of the contract and the situation may be able to elaborate more on that. Maybe @smallspy?

There's always going to be more than meets the eye, but the summary is that the TTC has used up all of the potential damage claims under the terms of the contact. (Should Siemens be tardy with their delivery, or have had more major issues than they apparently had with the Series 9 cars, they too would be subject to the same claims under their contract. It's all pretty standard stuff nowadays.) They has caused a number of problems with the TTC - for one, they were counting on a certain number of the new cars to have arrived by now, and to have replaced the worst of the aging CLRVs and ALRVs. This means that the TTC thus has to keep paying maintenance and upkeep on a number of vehicles that are far, far less reliable than the new cars have thus far proven to be.

 

So, the legal matter is necessary in this case as the TTC has borne additional costs far beyond those envisioned under the original terms of the contract. Again, not really that far out of the ordinary in the grand scheme of things.

 

As ADB pointed out however, Bombardier has managed to solve these kinds of issues before. The newest subway cars in Toronto had all sorts of delivery and teething issues to start, but are now proving to be far-and-away the most reliable vehicle that the TTC has ever purchased for the subway system. They've been pumping out GO cars like there's no tomorrow. Their ALP-45DPs are very, very well regarded by both the crews that operate them and those that maintain them.

 

The real telling thing will be not if Bombardier is able to meet the schedule for the first delivery, but rather whether they can meet the schedule for the last one, and whether the vehicles end up being as reliable as Bombardier promised.

 

Dan

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I appreciate all the new info posted. Those cars look impressive. Nice to see something different like the Flexity being built.

I'm used to seeing and reading about S70s SD100s, SD160S and U2s in citys like Salt Lake City, Portland, SanDiego, Edmonton and of course Calgary.

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  • 10 months later...
  • 1 month later...
  • 1 month later...

I am sure you will all be just as surprised as I am to learn that there's been another delay for LRT delivery.

https://www.therecord.com/news-story/7533939-software-the-latest-lrt-snafu/

http://kitchener.ctvnews.ca/another-lrt-setback-region-s-first-train-to-be-sent-back-to-bombardier-1.3573383

I thought I had made my prediction somewhere on this board before, but perhaps not. Even back in the spring I was saying that an April 2018 launch was almost impossible because of just how many trains Bom is claiming that they're going to be able to push out this fall (8 TTC streetcars a month, 2-3 Ions, plus whatever work they and Metrolinx hammer out. I believe their all time record right now is 4 in one month? Suddenly tripling that seems implausible, and it's better for them both financially and for PR to prioritise Toronto's order above us.) My guess back then was that trains would start next September, and that they might still run buses on the 200 for rush hour service in KW so they could launch with say, 10 trains instead of 14. Looks like both of those options are now being publicly admitted as being under consideration. Of course at that point I was figuring that their promised July train would come in September, and it looks like that's not happening anymore. Now I'm wondering if they'll even have enough trains to pull split-vehicle service off next September, and whether it might be delayed until January 2019.

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56 minutes ago, shivers said:

I am sure you will all be just as surprised as I am to learn that there's been another delay for LRT delivery.

https://www.therecord.com/news-story/7533939-software-the-latest-lrt-snafu/

http://kitchener.ctvnews.ca/another-lrt-setback-region-s-first-train-to-be-sent-back-to-bombardier-1.3573383

I thought I had made my prediction somewhere on this board before, but perhaps not. Even back in the spring I was saying that an April 2018 launch was almost impossible because of just how many trains Bom is claiming that they're going to be able to push out this fall (8 TTC streetcars a month, 2-3 Ions, plus whatever work they and Metrolinx hammer out. I believe their all time record right now is 4 in one month? Suddenly tripling that seems implausible, and it's better for them both financially and for PR to prioritise Toronto's order above us.) My guess back then was that trains would start next September, and that they might still run buses on the 200 for rush hour service in KW so they could launch with say, 10 trains instead of 14. Looks like both of those options are now being publicly admitted as being under consideration. Of course at that point I was figuring that their promised July train would come in September, and it looks like that's not happening anymore. Now I'm wondering if they'll even have enough trains to pull split-vehicle service off next September, and whether it might be delayed until January 2019.

Is this a TB or Kingston-made vehicle? If it doesn't work I am suggesting the latter, as all of TTC's vehicles are made in TB and AFAIK the TTC isn't having any mechanical or electrical problems with those in service, just the later-than-normal deliveries. AFAIK this is the first new product to have come out of BBD's Kingston plant in a while. A shift from Innovia Metro to Flexity is probably a significant adjustment for the workers there.

Had these problems not surfaced, I would have suggested that production of all Flexity Freedoms (for Metrolinx, ION, and ETS, and future orders) be moved to Kingston so that TB can concentrate on TTC and GO's orders. But considering reliability has been a greater concern for Kingston, I would have preferred that the pilot vehicle be delivered from TB instead. The dilemma here is whether GRT would prefer to have problematic vehicles delivered on time (Kingston) or functional vehicles delivered late (TB)?

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2 hours ago, Transit geek said:

Is this a TB or Kingston-made vehicle? If it doesn't work I am suggesting the latter, as all of TTC's vehicles are made in TB and AFAIK the TTC isn't having any mechanical or electrical problems with those in service, just the later-than-normal deliveries. AFAIK this is the first new product to have come out of BBD's Kingston plant in a while. A shift from Innovia Metro to Flexity is probably a significant adjustment for the workers there.

Had these problems not surfaced, I would have suggested that production of all Flexity Freedoms (for Metrolinx, ION, and ETS, and future orders) be moved to Kingston so that TB can concentrate on TTC and GO's orders. But considering reliability has been a greater concern for Kingston, I would have preferred that the pilot vehicle be delivered from TB instead. The dilemma here is whether GRT would prefer to have problematic vehicles delivered on time (Kingston) or functional vehicles delivered late (TB)?

The one in question was made in Thunder Bay. The rest of the ION order should come out of Kingston. They expanded the Millhaven facility recently to handle the Flexity Freedom construction, and I think henceforth all work on those cars will be done there. Then again they haven't made any significant progress with the Metrolinx or Edmonton orders yet so we can't be certain about anything just yet. 

Why do you say Kingston is worse than TB? Although they haven't delivered any Flexities yet, there has yet to be evidence that they are any worse.

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