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Green Line LRT

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2 hours ago, CTrainDude said:

No procurement news yet, although I imagine it would be soon to get the ball rolling on a large order, especially if they have to wait for others in line ahead.  Right now the Bombardier LRV is taking a bit of a kicking, at least in North America, so it wouldn’t be hard to go elsewhere now. They’ve got a lot of orders between TTC, Metrolinx and ION in southern Ontario (even after Metrolinx cut their order down substantially), and now Edmonton - and as most here likely know, the quality of their vehicles has been terrible and many have been sent back from the Ontario systems.  The Edmonton vehicle on display now looks good, but I’m sure that one-off was built with a little extra care and attention - not to mention it hasn't actually run anywhere.

As you mentioned, Alstom took over for the cancelled Bombardier Metrolinx vehicles, and have OCTranspo's new trains, so it’ll be interesting to see how they do in Canada. Since Siemens (Calgary's only previous supplier) is in the process of merging with Alstom, it may also give the advantage to that group, and whatever product they decide to pitch (S70? Citadis?).

A lot of these orders are part of a P3 consortium, so didn’t really have much choice in vehicles. The group building the system had a partnership with a vehicle manufacturer from the beginning. Calgary is purposefully procuring LRVs separately from the rest of the Green Line project procurement, so they can pick anyone they think is best. 

Not sure the quality has been bad in general just on the streetcar order I think, which was of course exacerbated by the special gauge and tighter turning radius etc.

 

I personally prefer the Alstom vehicles simply because I found them more spacious and they seem more robust in general . . . 

 

What confuses me about the Green Line is what they are currently doing, as you mentioned a lot of the Ontario systems use different procurement models (though not necessarily P3's) and so in the case of Metrolinx they contracts are only for building the lines while Metrolinx provides the vehicles . . . 

 

If the plan is to start construction by 2020 they must have issued an RFP or at least RFQ to get some bids no?

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1 hour ago, reecemartin said:

What confuses me about the Green Line is what they are currently doing, as you mentioned a lot of the Ontario systems use different procurement models (though not necessarily P3's) and so in the case of Metrolinx they contracts are only for building the lines while Metrolinx provides the vehicles . . . 

Design, Build, Finance is certainly not confusing. You could include whatever you feel is needed in the basic RFP. Edmonton followed the same basic idea for the NLRT, except they separately tendered for LRV's and the signalling system.

All of the different procurement models have their positives and negatives. Watching Edmonton, it certainly seems the whole process was streamlined with a design/ build for the NLRT rather than the City creating a large number of RFPs for all different aspects of LRT construction, as was the case on Edmonton's SLRT extension. I want to say there were upwards of 50 tenders issued for that line.

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10 hours ago, M. Parsons said:

I'm only aware of the TTC cars needing to have some work done. Hadn't heard anything about Waterloo. 

Yeah, bad wording on my part.  Only TTC has had quality issues, but unfortunately the other systems have experienced major delays in delivery of LRVs from the same factory.  The combination of the two problems has shaken confidence in Bombardier for some.

10 hours ago, LRT said:

No brainer it's going to be Siemens. Calgary Transit and Siemens are in bed together

My hope is that if that's the case, we'll at least be getting something from the Alstom side of the merger...

I know we never seem to learn, but the S200 should be evidence enough that it's time to move on.

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1 hour ago, CTrainDude said:

Yeah, bad wording on my part.  Only TTC has had quality issues, but unfortunately the other systems have experienced major delays in delivery of LRVs from the same factory.  The combination of the two problems has shaken confidence in Bombardier for some.

My hope is that if that's the case, we'll at least be getting something from the Alstom side of the merger...

I know we never seem to learn, but the S200 should be evidence enough that it's time to move on.

Really excuse me here but what issues have there been with the S200?

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13 minutes ago, chills_on_the_train said:

Fit and finish is what I've noticed. Just about every car has a loose panel or two either inside or out.

 

32 minutes ago, reecemartin said:

Really excuse me here but what issues have there been with the S200?

Yeah I've gotta say as a passenger the software seems to be buggy as all hell, as @chills_on_the_train mentioned, loose panels, easily breakable glass, and wasn't it just this past winter they had to remove the panels under the cabs because they were falling off in the snow?

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Oh and don't forget the doors. Those doors! I watched a single malfunctioning door hold up all of WB 7th Ave for 15 minutes one day because the door had some kind of problem and was flashing red. Eventually it was resolved and the train continued. But still.

I work in software and I know how silly things can get sometimes. But still. It's a door. How hard can it be?

Sometimes I think it would be easier if all the doors just opened and closed simultaneously on the respective side at each stop regardless of passenger load, like a metro system. I have a particular appreciation for DC's unapologetic, get-out-of-my-way

sound to discourage limbs.
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A bit off topic but I think it's worth bringing it up here..

The S200s are a rattle box. They creek and rattle more then the U2s, the operator seats are awful, braking is rough...  "flash faults" keep popping up and distract the operator. Door issues are an everlasting problem.

Getting in the cab is a challenge, the seat is in the way, you need to wrestle the seat out of the way try to adjust it and try not to pinch your fingers when you close the cab door. 

Dead man override, horn and clangor is in an awkward position and you have to reach for it very uncomfortable.

People say it's a nice-looking train but the fit and finish throughout is awful. The more I look at it the more I'm starting to think that it's actually not a nice looking train. Maybe it's left a bad taste in my mouth I don't know..

As far as I'm concerned this product is not proven and now we're dealing with all the issues.

As far as the Bombardier lrv that I viewed in Edmonton it is a far superior vehicle then the S200s. I took an extremely good look at this lrv. The fit and finish is phenomenal, everything is secured and installed very well. Nothing is loose, nothing rattles I took a close look at the body and the lines are straight.. it's high-quality lrv. And one of these most important things about this new Bombardier lrv is that everything is proven. The Bombardier people told me this lrv is ready to run in service! Unlike the s200 when they arrive in Calgary there's a lot of work to be done on them.

Who knows maybe the green line will receive a similar product to the Bombardier product.

 

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I'd say I'm a little confused as to how the S200 isn't proven I'm not 100% sure but would wager it's based on the SD-160s? If they SD-160s had a lot of issues then why did transit choose Siemens here?

Any thought been given to the Kinki-Sharyo LRV's LA has been using? (https://www.google.ca/search?q=kinki+sharyo+la&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiogcziz9HcAhVaIjQIHSKKAFsQ_AUICygC&biw=1440&bih=667#imgrc=wrqUiAviF-5LPM:)

Can't say I know they are reliable but seems like the only alternative that springs to mind.

I'd also say I appreciate that the doors entering the carbody seems like a more solid assembly.

And btw from the looks of every other Canadian LRT project its probably gonna be either the Flexities or the Citadis

 

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6 minutes ago, reecemartin said:

I'd say I'm a little confused as to how the S200 isn't proven I'm not 100% sure but would wager it's based on the SD-160s?

I wouldn't wager too much on that... 😉

3 hours ago, reecemartin said:

Really excuse me here but what issues have there been with the S200?

This being a public forum isn't the best venue to get into too much detail but the list is quite looooong.

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30 minutes ago, reecemartin said:

I'd say I'm a little confused as to how the S200 isn't proven I'm not 100% sure but would wager it's based on the SD-160s? If they SD-160s had a lot of issues then why did transit choose Siemens here?

 

Any thought been given to the Kinki-Sharyo LRV's LA has been using? (https://www.google.ca/search?q=kinki+sharyo+la&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiogcziz9HcAhVaIjQIHSKKAFsQ_AUICygC&biw=1440&bih=667#imgrc=wrqUiAviF-5LPM:)

 

Can't say I know they are reliable but seems like the only alternative that springs to mind.

I'd also say I appreciate that the doors entering the carbody seems like a more solid assembly.

And btw from the looks of every other Canadian LRT project its probably gonna be either the Flexities or the Citadis

 

The S200s are completely different from the SD160s. It's a completely new model and uses different technology. Completely unproven technology as we're all aware of.

As I've just learned the SD160s that ETS uses and our Series 8s SD160Ss are completely different as well. At the very least ETS uses different braking systems than Calgary's...

Kinki-Sharyo was included in the Calgary 9 program unfortunately they were unsuccessful in the bid..would have been nice to see those cars in Calgary let alone in Canada.

Here's an old rough picture of a rendering that was presented to Calgary Transit during the bid.

 

20180803_140510.jpg

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6 minutes ago, LRT said:

The S200s are completely different from the SD160s. It's a completely new model and uses different technology. Completely unproven technology as we're all aware of.

As I've just learned the SD160s that ETS uses and our Series 8s SD160Ss are completely different as well. At the very least ETS uses different braking systems than Calgary's...

Kinki-Sharyo was included in the Calgary 9 program unfortunately they were unsuccessful in the bid..would have been nice to see those cars in Calgary let alone in Canada.

Here's an old rough picture of a rendering that was presented to Calgary Transit during the bid.

 

20180803_140510.jpg

Can you be more specific as to what tech is different? I assume it still uses traditional motors and pantos? So is it signaling or just the overall electrical system?

 

Also doesn't seem Alstom sells high floor LRV's, I wonder if the Metropolis would be an option: https://www.alstom.com/metropolis-continuously-improved-serve-cities

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55 minutes ago, LRT said:

Kinki-Sharyo was included in the Calgary 9 program unfortunately they were unsuccessful in the bid..would have been nice to see those cars in Calgary let alone in Canada.



Here's an old rough picture of a rendering that was presented to Calgary Transit during the bid.

You should know that Kinki Sharyo's LA order is the first to be manufactured in the U.S. The company has made LRVs before (high-floor ones for Boston and Dallas and low-floor ones for Seattle, Phoenix, San Jose and New Jersey), but all of these were imported from Japan. On the other hand, all Siemens LRVs in North America (except for the U2s) are made in California using parts from the U.S.

Also worth considering is CAF's Urbos platform and/or Brookville Liberty.

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14 hours ago, CTrainDude said:

Yeah, bad wording on my part.  Only TTC has had quality issues, but unfortunately the other systems have experienced major delays in delivery of LRVs from the same factory.  The combination of the two problems has shaken confidence in Bombardier for some.

Not trying to be a Bombardier apologist, as they have indeed screwed up well and truly good in Ontario. Technically the delays were from two different factories. Thunder Bay for TTC, Kingston for Waterloo. Granted, that's probably much worse than if just one factory was building cars late! There's a really long supply chain involved too, with modules being built in Mexico for the TTC at least, the cabs for Edmonton cars and probably others were built in Europe. It seems like it has taken BBD some time to get all of this sorted out. It looks like right in time for the Edmonton cars. They really need to pull off a good job with Edmonton otherwise I think no one will have an confidence left in them! 

On a positive note, the U-2 refurbishment, while delayed and longer than planned, didn't take anywhere near as long as the Calgary SD160 refurbishment with Siemen's.

 

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3 hours ago, Blake M said:

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/lrt-trains-unreliable-says-report-1.5038832

News article from Ottawa. Perhaps something Calgary should think about for our Green Line. 

OC Transpo is using brand new train vehicles, Calgary would be using Siemens vehicles, which arguably have been present in Alberta since 1978, and in Calgary itself for 38 years. Although Siemens does have its issues, I'd imagine they're significantly more reliable than a train that's never been operated before. I can't see Bombardier getting onto the tracks in Calgary - plus potentially, would Siemens offer a discount for using exclusively Siemens LRV's across Calgary Transit, much like how sometimes New Flyer offers perks to cities that exclusively use NFI buses? There's definitely alot to consider, but I can't see the city saying no to Siemens after almost four decades of reliable service :P

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3 hours ago, armorand said:

OC Transpo is using brand new train vehicles, Calgary would be using Siemens vehicles, which arguably have been present in Alberta since 1978, and in Calgary itself for 38 years. Although Siemens does have its issues, I'd imagine they're significantly more reliable than a train that's never been operated before. I can't see Bombardier getting onto the tracks in Calgary - plus potentially, would Siemens offer a discount for using exclusively Siemens LRV's across Calgary Transit, much like how sometimes New Flyer offers perks to cities that exclusively use NFI buses? There's definitely alot to consider, but I can't see the city saying no to Siemens after almost four decades of reliable service :P

There is a HUGE change in scope and design between a high-floor car - which Calgary (and Edmonton) have been buying since the 1970s, and a low-floor car, which is what is going to run on the Green Line. It doesn't matter that they are built by the same company, they're are simply not comparable.

 

Also, you may want to look up how Calgary's latest cars have been doing compared to their older ones. Sure, they're all high-floor, but the newest cars have been hugely problematic. And San Fransisco is having all sorts of similar issues with their cars, too.

 

And no, NFI offers no such deals to previous buyers of their buses, nor does any other manufacturer. They honestly don't give a shit what's currently in your fleet, beyond what they can sell you parts for.


Dan

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1 hour ago, downbeat said:

I watched the March 20 Greenline update and some of Coun. Gondek’s and Coun. Chu’s questioning were based more on emotion and grandstanding than facts and reason.

Gondek is worried that Greenline to the North would compete against all transportation projects (Blue line extensions, Center St. BRT enhancements, Deerfoot enhancements etc). She questioned if she should be pushing for affordable housing in her ward to "jack up our rating" for Greenline to the North (affordable housing is one of many criteria for where Phase 2 should go next). She suggests that administration is setting up a competition among wards.

Administration’s responded they aim to make the best investment for the city as a whole and for taxpayers in general. They do not want to create competition among wards.

Chu questioned if the North is getting ignored because there is no money budgeted in Stage 1 for land acquisition north of 16 Ave. Chu has previously expressed how the north was getting “screwed” in previous Green Line updates.

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This might be an old bit of news but regarding the Siemens - Alstom merger, it was blocked by the European Commission so Bombardier can breathe easier. 

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