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TTC CLRV/ALRV updates and discussion

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32 minutes ago, CLRV4002 said:

So it seems the 508 is currently bustituted for this board period according to Steve Munro and posts on other threads. I can’t really understand why CLRVs couldn’t be used for the 508.

There’s no way they couldn’t find 5 CLRVs a day that were decently reliable and I can’t really understand why accessibility is an issue since the entire route is interlined with accessible cars on the 504/501. The 508 is more of just a convenience/capacity booster anyways. 

It comes down to having to maintain 5 cars plus spares which are different from the other 200 in the fleet. Plus it's difficult to find parts for them which is why they are being retired. 

In order to run them in revenue service you would need to rebuild them to run another 10 years, which was already determined to be unfeasible.

The TTC should order the 60 extra cars while they are still fixing the welds on the ones that had defects. Otherwise it's going to cost a lot more to hire and retain people to ramp up the production line again.  

And while those 60 are being built to look into future growth and order more cars before those 60 are completed and delivered.

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1 hour ago, CLRV4002 said:

So it seems the 508 is currently bustituted for this board period according to Steve Munro and posts on other threads. I can’t really understand why CLRVs couldn’t be used for the 508.

There’s no way they couldn’t find 5 CLRVs a day that were decently reliable and I can’t really understand why accessibility is an issue since the entire route is interlined with accessible cars on the 504/501. The 508 is more of just a convenience/capacity booster anyways. 

I'm sure I'm not the only one that thinks something was a bit fishy about this. It was already strange that the retirement date was in the middle of a board period BUT it was also the last weekend before the new year. We're constantly told the cars are unreliable but those that watched the 511 and 501 specials back in December only saw a very small number of cars that had problems and most, if not all of those were resolved. The TTC even admitted to keeping two sets of reliability stats to put down the old cars while making the new cars look nearly perfect. If I put my conspiracy theory hat on, I'd say this was all done for two reasons. The first is to create an urgent need to get more streetcars (although this need was well known many months ago). The second reason, and the reason why I'd say the retirement was done in the last weekend in 2019, was to make for a nice paragraph/blurb in the CEOs report about the surface fleet being 100% accessible by the end of 2019. And I don't dismiss accessibility being a grand goal, but a shortage means less room for people with wheelchairs and devices/carriages because the cars are so packed. And specific to the 508 (which I use), a couple of the makeshift stops would not be accessible anyways due to the bus not using the private right of way. Also, making this route a bus means the bus does not serve Humber Loop and from what I recall, the 508 cars were to provide additional capacity on the 501L cars for customers transferring from the 501 Queen.

If we kept a few CLRVs to fill the gap, that would not have precluded us from buying more cars. But even if we order 60 more new cars next month they wouldn't be coming anytime soon anyways. But what's done is done.

 

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1 hour ago, CLRV4002 said:

I can’t really understand why CLRVs couldn’t be used for the 508. There’s no way they couldn’t find 5 CLRVs a day that were decently reliable and I can’t really understand why accessibility is an issue since the entire route is interlined with accessible cars on the 504/501. The 508 is more of just a convenience/capacity booster anyways. 

CLRVs are done. That's it. Finished. Gone. They're inaccessible.  At high(er) risk of breaking down. Their retirement ceremony has passed. TTC has confirmed all surface routes are now fully accessible.  There is no going back at this point.

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5 minutes ago, DepthOfField said:

CLRVs are done. That's it. Finished. Gone. They're inaccessible.  At high(er) risk of breaking down. Their retirement ceremony has passed. TTC has confirmed all surface routes are now fully accessible.  There is no going back at this point.

Yeah I’ve accepted that they’re done, the TTC wouldn’t go back on that even if it was completely necessary. I still think it’s regrettable on their part since the 508 is almost an ideal spot for the CLRVs to at least help bridge the gap until some new cars arrive (whenever that happens). And I have to agree with @christine that the retirement of the CLRVs seems like a talking point for the TTC more than anything. But what’s done is done. Steve Munro is even doubtful that the 505 will be able to return in April or at least won’t allow for much flexibility for things such as RAD cars across the entire network. 

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4 hours ago, Shaun said:

It comes down to having to maintain 5 cars plus spares which are different from the other 200 in the fleet. Plus it's difficult to find parts for them which is why they are being retired. 

It's academic but there would be no shortage of parts when you've retired 80% of the fleet and salvaged a ton of key parts.

Accessibility is not really an issue if they ran on a route like 508 that 100% overlaps with accessible routes. It's extra capacity at the peak hours.

It came down to being able to check the box that they were retired by the end of 2019, which was the stated goal some time ago. It's done, and management gets to say it achieved that objective on its performance review.

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While we haven’t been polar vortex hammered yet this winter, the reality is that we are in the most vulnerable period for CLRV reliability. Re-introducing 508 as a streetcar route with no certainty of enough vehicles to operate it on an ongoing basis is very on brand for TTC in the Late 2010s tho, just like when they were rushing to designate 510 and 514 as accessible but having to run Cs on them for various reasons.

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On 1/5/2020 at 8:12 PM, dowlingm said:

While we haven’t been polar vortex hammered yet this winter, the reality is that we are in the most vulnerable period for CLRV reliability. Re-introducing 508 as a streetcar route with no certainty of enough vehicles to operate it on an ongoing basis is very on brand for TTC in the Late 2010s tho, just like when they were rushing to designate 510 and 514 as accessible but having to run Cs on them for various reasons.

If they can't even run the 508 with the existing fleet, how the hell are they going to run the 505, even with a Bathurst bustitution?

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Just now, Streety McCarface said:

If they can't even run the 508 with the existing fleet, how the hell are they going to run the 505, even with a Bathurst bustitution?

Just hope there is construction planned for the streetcars routes because I’ve been wondering the same thing

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7 minutes ago, TTC 9701 said:

I'm hoping Halton picks up at least one or two more as a parts source.

Unlikely. It's costly to move a car and its easier to just ship parts that have already been salvaged.

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29 minutes ago, Streety McCarface said:

If they can't even run the 508 with the existing fleet, how the hell are they going to run the 505, even with a Bathurst bustitution?

Bathurst bustitution in March frees up 11 cars. Hopefully by then, the remaining 6 new cars (4401 and 4599 to 4603) will have entered service, along with the 2 flood-damaged cars (4471 and 4478). That's 19 cars.

505 Dundas was planned to have 14 cars. Mind you, 506 Carlton was supposed to get 24 cars, but instead got 22 cars and 8 buses.

Perhaps bus trippers on 505 similar to 501 and 506 is the answer. Presumably 511 stays buses once construction ends until 2022 or 2023 if and when new streetcars start to arrive (or 2030 ... sigh ...)

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4 minutes ago, nfitz said:

Perhaps bus trippers on 505 similar to 501 and 506 is the answer. Presumably 511 stays buses once construction ends until 2022 or 2023 if and when new streetcars start to arrive (or 2030 ... sigh ...)

There probably will be streetcars on the 511 in August-September for the CNE

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13 minutes ago, John Oke said:

There probably will be streetcars on the 511 in August-September for the CNE

They could run weekend service - which are the busiest CNE days. Extra buses more than suffices on the weekdays.

Though with construction on Bathurst not starting until April ... will they be finished in 2020 - let alone August?  I suppose they could run streetcars from Bathurst Station to Dufferin Gates loop. I'm guessing express buses from Dundas West station are more likely.

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2 hours ago, CLRV4002 said:

https://www.instagram.com/p/B69mbz4BgMp/?hl=en

Looks like 4074 is a goner 

It been on scrap track 20 the last 2 weeks behind 4091 & 4094 as noted in my past posting. What there now, I don't know until I have a look on Tuesday.

All cars from 4599 to 4604 will be in service in Feb along with 4406. 4599 could be in service around Jan 13. 4600 around Jan 21

As for 4401, 4471 and 4478 as well the cars in QC, it unknown at this time when they will be in service and will depend when they are off loaded, along with testing.

Then, when will the next batch get ship to QC and how many will it be???

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12 hours ago, TTC 9701 said:

I'm hoping Halton picks up at least one or two more as a parts source.

Of the 4 cars that Halton is getting, at least one is earmarked as a long-term parts source. As well, they also had delivered about 6 or 7 skids worth of spares.

 

I think that they're going to be fine.

 

Dan

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On 12/29/2019 at 12:06 PM, Robert Lubinski said:

Here's a shot I took of 4089 in 1995 I think, I don't remember the date but it's on the back of the photo. I think the a/c was gone by 1997.

20190928_203351.jpg

I've heard an ALRV also got A/C, were there any photos of that?

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Toronto Star "Day in the Life of Toronto", January 7, 1986. View from the pit at Russell, photo by Alan Dunlop. Feature posted in the Star today. There is also a photo of a shedman sweeping a PCC. Edit: added that photo here to keep them together.

20200107_171155.jpg

20200107_172659.jpg

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49 minutes ago, Robert Lubinski said:

Toronto Star "Day in the Life of Toronto", January 7, 1986. View from the pit at Russell, photo by Alan Dunlop. Feature posted in the Star today. 

20200107_171155.jpg

The CLRV is on 1 track. The view from that spot is very difficult to replicate now since the in ground hoists are in there now

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2 hours ago, Matthew TTC 4120 said:

I have been told that 4133 is missing it’s front centre light and that 4069 4104 have there poles down.

That's a shame. Besides the occasional heater issue, 4069 not only worked great (according to some of the operators) but the interior and exterior was in good shape. If there was ever a need for a static display unit, that would be one of my choices.

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On 1/7/2020 at 5:21 PM, Robert Lubinski said:

Toronto Star "Day in the Life of Toronto", January 7, 1986. View from the pit at Russell, photo by Alan Dunlop. Feature posted in the Star today. There is also a photo of a shedman sweeping a PCC. Edit: added that photo here to keep them together.

20200107_171155.jpg

20200107_172659.jpg

Those are nice pictures. I’m wondering whether it was fast film, maybe push processed to get more speed out of it, or long exposures.  I don’t think it was flash unless there was maybe a bit of fill flash because the front to back brightness is much too consistent for a single flash setup keeping in mind those were newspaper pictures, not an O. Winston Link composition after all.

It’s interesting to think that 1976 is far enough back now that not only are those streetcars retired but the people working in those pictures would be enjoying retirement now too.

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22 hours ago, Wayside Observer said:

...  or long exposures ...

Definitely not long exposure. Otherwise the maintence worker would have motion blur.
Def higher ISO film or push processing.

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