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TTC CLRV/ALRV updates and discussion

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I'm sure they've been entertaining the idea for years now, I'm just saying there's no particular rush for them to choose out specific units since they've still got so many.

I'd be surprised if Seashore ended up getting a CLRV, at least one of the ones that were leased to the MBTA. The only one of the three that survives is 4029, and that one's an unrefurbished rusting hulk. If they can pull it off though then all the power to them.

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All I'm suggesting, and all I'm suggesting, is that at approximately a year out, it isn't too early to make a shortlist of a small number of cars to be kept in decent shape vs. the rest of the fleet that's probably going to inevitably deteriorate to varying degrees between now and retirement.  This would be analogous to taking a proactive view of "Skate to where the puck is going" as opposed to "don't worry about lacing up your skates until after the other team's scored a couple of goals."

On the museum side, anyone thinking about obtaining any of the TTC cars, retired Boeings, LRVs that are going to be coming from the early LRT systems, it probably wouldn't hurt to start picking up things like some soldering tools, a used scope, a couple of used  bench power supplies, nothing big, expensive or fancy, just enough to be ready to handle working on the electronic side of things when it comes up.  Believe me, nothing sucks more than making good progress on the project you're working on and then have the whole thing slam to a stop because you don't have the tool you need when you need it.  That is immensely frustrating.  That's also why I'm a big proponent for planning ahead for what you know is going to be coming, generally speaking.  Then again, I don't live in a downtown Toronto condo and I've never called a concierge to ask what to do when my bathroom's light has burnt out (unfortunately a true story), and when the brown stuff hits the fan, I'm usually prepared to deal with it on my own instead of running to the nearest trigger-warning peanut free comfort zone, so maybe I'm an edge case here.

As for Seashore wanting a CLRV.  Did I not mention that the specific idea of getting one of the cars that ran in Boston was old information from before when one of my best friends died?  I'm talking about a tentative plan being discussed about 2005-2006ish when the subject came up because the TTC had begun to seriously pursue replacing the existing fleet which was in better shape across the board then than now.  Times change and plans change with them.  Like I already mentioned, I can't speak for what any of their current plans are because I fell out of touch with the place after my friend passed.

Maybe I did it too soon after he passed, but I only went back there once after that and it was a rough visit because we were close.  End result, I can't tell you if they still want one of the MBTA loaner units regardless of condition, some other CLRV, or have dropped the idea entirely.  What I can tell you is that I was able to make the trip down and visit my friend in the hospital twice.  I can tell you one of the worst phone calls I've ever taken was when another friend called and asked me to send a birthday card down ASAP because he wasn't expected to live much past that.  The call started with "He isn't going home from the hospital" and hearing that shook me.  So my apologies for the foregoing interfering with my ability to provide CPTDB with exact, up to the second detailed information about any plans that Seashore might have for a CLRV.  Honestly, much as I like them, there are some things, really a lot of things, that are far higher priority to me than worrying about streetcars and my friends and family are pretty high up on the list.

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8 minutes ago, Wayside Observer said:

As for Seashore wanting a CLRV.  Did I not mention that the specific idea of getting one of the cars that ran in Boston was old information from before when one of my best friends died?  I'm talking about a tentative plan being discussed about 2005-2006ish when the subject came up because the TTC had begun to seriously pursue replacing the existing fleet which was in better shape across the board then than now.  Times change and plans change with them.  Like I already mentioned, I can't speak for what any of their current plans are because I fell out of touch with the place after my friend passed.

I didn't intend to trivialize your loss or cast doubt upon your information in any way, and if my post came across that way, I apologize.

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It's alright, sorry for being a bit sensitive about it, this is one of those losses that still stings even after quite a bit of time.

Really, the biggest issue right out of the gate is the truck gauge.  That's going to be an issue with anycars going south of the border.  At least we know the outboard bearing UTDC trucks can be converted to standard gauge from the initial testing on the Orbe-Chavornay railway in Switzerland with the SIG cars and the three that were lent to the MBTA.  I don't know if those trucks can be widened out and if so, by how much, since the CLRVs were never demonstrated on PAT or SEPTA and I don't know if Pennsylvania broad gauge was a design consideration when UTDC designed the cars and had other potential customers in mind.

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Transsee says that there are seven ALRVs out (on a cold morning yet!).

  • 4204
  • 4207
  • 4221
  • 4225
  • 4226
  • 4230
  • 4236

I don't know how often we'll see sequential fleet numbers in service in the future. Presumably 4225 and 4226 could meet this morning, presuming they both stay in service.

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21 hours ago, Wayside Observer said:

Assuming no more serious Bombardier surprises the CLRV fleet has about a year, maybe a year and a bit left to go and it doesn't sound like the ALRV fleet's got much time at all so despite the apparent plentifulness of streetcars, now is the time to start thinking about eventual preservation of a couple and making plans.

The CLRVs will still be around for a couple of years at the least. According to the latest ridership projections, the Flexities on order aren't even going to get the TTC through the projected ridership growth through the end of 2019. There is a serious need for the 60 additional cars ASAP, and even those will only take them through 2023 or so. The current plan is for the last of the CLRVs to be retired in 2021, but I can't see that happening if they want to avoid continuing to bustitute lines.

 

As for the ALRVs, on the other hand - the CEO's latest report (https://www.ttc.ca/PDF/About_the_TTC/CEO_Report/CEO_Report_November_2018_Update.pdf) budgets for the last 7 to last until 2020. Judging from their reliability, however, I think that frankly we will all be surprised to see that happen.

 

21 hours ago, Wayside Observer said:

 Adam Giambrone said that the TTC would preserve "more than just two" back when the low floor fleet was ordered but that was a number of years, several commissions, a couple of mayors, and a sex scandal ago so I'm under no illusion that that's still the plan.  There's probably a couple of railway museums that would want a couple of cars.  HCRR comes to mind first and foremost and I know years ago, Seashore in Maine had aspirations of acquiring at least one of the cars that had been lent to the MBTA but I've been pretty well out of touch there since one of my friends there passed away so I don't know what any current thoughts on obtaining a CLRV are.  I'm almost feeling nostalgic for the days when trolley museums complained about how hard maintaining PCC cars were because of the complexity of the control system on those cars.  Especially when the complaints were being made about Westinghouse cars, never mind GEs!

Unfortunately I don't know what the TTC's plans for preservation are (although there are certainly people inside The Commission that are going to do everything in their power to make it happen), but there is currently a lineup of operations across the continent that are waiting to receive CLRVs. And you can count on HCRY to be at the head of that list. To the best of my knowledge Seashore is still quite high up that list as well, regardless of the state of the remaining "Boston" car.

 

Dan

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Weekly fleet status update:

4040, 4096, 4148, 4157 and 4181 at Hillcrest (last in service Nov 29, last night, Dec 4, Nov 23, and Dec 4 respectively)

4145 is back at Russell, no service yet

4165 is MIA, last seen Nov 20

4240 is at Hillcrest

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On ‎12‎/‎7‎/‎2018 at 9:06 AM, smallspy said:

The CLRVs will still be around for a couple of years at the least. According to the latest ridership projections, the Flexities on order aren't even going to get the TTC through the projected ridership growth through the end of 2019. There is a serious need for the 60 additional cars ASAP, and even those will only take them through 2023 or so. The current plan is for the last of the CLRVs to be retired in 2021, but I can't see that happening if they want to avoid continuing to bustitute lines.

 

As for the ALRVs, on the other hand - the CEO's latest report (https://www.ttc.ca/PDF/About_the_TTC/CEO_Report/CEO_Report_November_2018_Update.pdf) budgets for the last 7 to last until 2020. Judging from their reliability, however, I think that frankly we will all be surprised to see that happen.

 

Unfortunately I don't know what the TTC's plans for preservation are (although there are certainly people inside The Commission that are going to do everything in their power to make it happen), but there is currently a lineup of operations across the continent that are waiting to receive CLRVs. And you can count on HCRY to be at the head of that list. To the best of my knowledge Seashore is still quite high up that list as well, regardless of the state of the remaining "Boston" car.

 

Dan

Besides Seashore and HCRR, who else is interested in a CLRV?

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21 hours ago, Tom1122 said:

Besides Seashore and HCRR, who else is interested in a CLRV?

Reportedly, a lot of different outfits. A bunch of them you should be able to figure out without much effort. One of them, if things hold true, surprised me with their interest.

 

And no, I'm not going to post a list here, at least not yet. It's not fair to those working behind the scenes to have their work jeopardized.

 

Dan

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14 hours ago, TTC 9701 said:

Curious here. Are they eyeing the ALRV's as well?

ALRV's have been part of the discussion,  yes, with the obvious caveat that it is unlikely that they will be in any condition to be able to be used with any sort of regularity.


Dan

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According to Steve Munro, next board period there will be only five ALRVs scheduled, as AM and PM trippers on 501.

Quote
All base service will be designated for CLRVs. Low floor cars will be used on weekday runs as available.
Five ALRVs will be scheduled as trippers in the AM and PM peaks partially restoring former Lake Shore trips to/from downtown.
AM Peak:
  • Long Branch to Russell Carhouse: Three trips arriving at Yonge Street at about 8:30, 8:40 and 8:50 am.
  • Russell Carhouse to Sunnyside Loop: Two trips arriving at Yonge Street at about 8:35 and 8:45 am.
PM Peak:
  • Sunnyside Loop to Neville Park: Two trips leaving Yonge Street at about 5:05 and 5:15 pm.
  • Russell Carhouse to Long Branch: Three trips leaving from Yonge St. at about 5:05, 5:15 and 5:25 pm.

I wonder:

Will the trippers be ALRVs or CLRVs when they show up?

Will they show up at all? (I have unfond memories of waiting for 508 cars that never came.)

 

 

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