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TTC CLRV/ALRV updates and discussion


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18 hours ago, CLRV4002 said:

Do you know, assuming the current delivery schedule stays the same and with desired spare ratios, is having the 501L and 511 running 100% Flexity reasonable by September or sooner? Keeping in mind that looking at the schedule now, the 511 has 12 CLRVs scheduled during peak hours, which I know is also operated with Flexities also, does it really need 11 Flexities like the 2015 estimate says? I was thinking maybe 8-9 or so??

And assuming 24 Flexities on the 506, again at the current delivery schedule, just by doing the math, can you estimate the earliest possible date to see 100% Flexity operation on the 506? I would say the first day of a new board period closest to this date or the next one after would be the end of the CLRVs. 

Even if they only put 18 Flexities on 506, and run extra buses, they need about 180 cars after 501L and 511, with 20% spares (about 150 without spares).  (and they'll be lucky to only have 20% spares for some time, with 7 cars in Quebec for warranty work, and 2 cars in New York for repairs!).

Current fleet size is 160 (including the 9 in Quebec/New York).

Currently Bombardier are delivering on average about 20 cars a quarter, peaking at 24 for Q2 (about 5 to 8 cars a month).  They've already delivered 5 in July - for 166 total delivered (and 38 left to come).

So they might have 180 cars in service by the October 13 (the October board date). So not impossible to have 100% Flexity on 506, if they keep 502/503/505 and some 501 trippers and 506 as buses.

But that's if Bombardier can maintain the current delivery rate. We were told once, that only up to car 4569 (or was it 4571) were coming from Thunder Bay. That's only 8 to 10 more cars, with the remaining 27 to 29 cars coming from Kingston. Thunder Bay can build 20 or so cars a quarter, but Kingston has only delivered 5 cars over 7 months! I'd also assume that Thunder Bay production would slow, as the workforce reduces - and perhaps some critical trades find new jobs elsewhere!

Either way, I doubt that we'll be seeing any CLRVs left in service by the time it gets cold in mid-December. Nor do I expect to see any ALRVs out there, other than a random car here or there. I wouldn't want them anywhere near the Exhibition, during the CNE - last thing they want is a breakdown!

In reality they are now projecting full conversion in 2026, with the extra AM peak run being buses, and not CLRVs or ALRVs. 2030 is probably more feasible if anyone other than Bombardier gets the next contract.

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It is sort of disappointing that they are rushing the CLRVs/ALRVs into retirement and using lower capacity buses as peak period trippers. By keeping a small fleet of the best legacy streetcars for peak periods, it shouldn't be an issue. But I guess using buses is just the easy way out. 

An ALRV breakdown during the CNE is very possible and would really cause a problem. That being said, looking back at the CEO reports from when the ALRVs were only used during peak hours, their reliability improved to a tolerable level. But unfortunately, enough Flexities make it onto Bathurst everyday that running an ALRV would only be for the novelty of it, probably not out of necessity. 

In preservation news, the TTC spokesperson Stuart Green said in response to someone's tweet that the plan is to keep a CLRV and an ALRV as historic vehicles, although they need a lot of work. I hope 4002 is still around somewhere, as it tracked last week and maybe will be kept.

If I had to put money on it, I'd say 4230 is the ALRV to be kept, solely because it was at Roncy not too long ago and was used during the Rail Rodeo so I think it's safe to say it's in okay condition. But I have no idea for sure about anything, and probably no one else does yet either. 

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19 hours ago, nfitz said:

But that's if Bombardier can maintain the current delivery rate. We were told once, that only up to car 4569 (or was it 4571) were coming from Thunder Bay. That's only 8 to 10 more cars, with the remaining 27 to 29 cars coming from Kingston. Thunder Bay can build 20 or so cars a quarter, but Kingston has only delivered 5 cars over 7 months! I'd also assume that Thunder Bay production would slow, as the workforce reduces - and perhaps some critical trades find new jobs elsewhere!

Considering that the original source of that info claimed that the car that was going to be 4570 was actually 4572, and claimed that they were going to be able to build 30 cars in Kingston by the end of 2019 when they very obviously are not, that we can throw out much of what we think that we "know" about how the tail-end of this contract is going to play out. I for one am sorry that I took that person's word so completely.

 

It doesn't help that my sources on the manufacturing and design side have all either retired or moved on to bigger and better things - and that no one at the TTC seems to know which cars will be coming from where.

 

16 hours ago, CLRV4002 said:

It is sort of disappointing that they are rushing the CLRVs/ALRVs into retirement and using lower capacity buses as peak period trippers. By keeping a small fleet of the best legacy streetcars for peak periods, it shouldn't be an issue. But I guess using buses is just the easy way out.

While at one point the TTC felt it prudent to continue to operate a small sub-fleet of the best condition cars after the end of service for the majority of the CLRV fleet, as we know they've changed that. I don't know how high up that decision came from, but I too feel that it is more than somewhat shortsighted.

 

Dan

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23 minutes ago, smallspy said:

Considering that the original source of that info claimed that the car that was going to be 4570 was actually 4572, and claimed that they were going to be able to build 30 cars in Kingston by the end of 2019 when they very obviously are not, that we can throw out much of what we think that we "know" about how the tail-end of this contract is going to play out. I for one am sorry that I took that person's word so completely.

 

It doesn't help that my sources on the manufacturing and design side have all either retired or moved on to bigger and better things - and that no one at the TTC seems to know which cars will be coming from where.

 

While at one point the TTC felt it prudent to continue to operate a small sub-fleet of the best condition cars after the end of service for the majority of the CLRV fleet, as we know they've changed that. I don't know how high up that decision came from, but I too feel that it is more than somewhat shortsighted.

 

Dan

It must come down to cost, it's cheaper to maintain new buses than to maintain old street cars. Not to mention the reliability stats, and accessibility. 

But even running C's in Rush hour only would help alleviate some of the growth ridership we are seeing. 

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21 hours ago, CLRV4002 said:

It is sort of disappointing that they are rushing the CLRVs/ALRVs into retirement and using lower capacity buses as peak period trippers. By keeping a small fleet of the best legacy streetcars for peak periods, it shouldn't be an issue. But I guess using buses is just the easy way out. 

An ALRV breakdown during the CNE is very possible and would really cause a problem. That being said, looking back at the CEO reports from when the ALRVs were only used during peak hours, their reliability improved to a tolerable level. But unfortunately, enough Flexities make it onto Bathurst everyday that running an ALRV would only be for the novelty of it, probably not out of necessity. 

506 is probably the best route to keep Cs and As on until the end, no? Minimal overlap with (and therefore disruption of in the event of a propulsion or braking failure) other routes. 

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4079 on the 506

4010, 4094, 4131 and 4051 haven’t been in service for a bit 

It’s hard to tell whether cars that haven’t been active in about a week are due to them having issues or are they just not needed? I can imagine at this point if we consider 81 CLRVs to still be “active” then there’s quite a surplus. 

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4242 lives!

Sort of.

Here’s a scary thought:  We’re in the final few months of that being a picture of a theoretically current streetcar despite the remaining ALRVs practically never getting out. By the end of the year, that picture will be as much of a retro throwback as the PCC on the cafe’s menu.

EBCCA695-00CE-4F0B-B1A8-1DA4904CC872.jpeg

3420437F-89D2-4BFF-9DDC-0B4D52585D44.jpeg

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About 2 weeks ago, I reported 4230 as being at Exhibition Loop and returned to Russell potentially being towed by 4170. 

On Steve Munro’s post about the last board meeting, someone commented that 4230 was used as an RAD streetcar on Bathurst a few weeks back but had to be towed by a CLRV. I believe this to be true since it did appear to return to Russell towed by 4170. I’m not sure who reported it on the post or how they knew it was an RAD car but either way, it likely suffered a breakdown of some kind. 

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In the dead yard on 21 track, 4198 has been stripped, coupled to a damaged 4020 that was hit on the curb side at the front door. The damage bent the left side of the door pretty good that it’s definitely done. On 20 track, 4004, 4111, 4065 & 4150all lay in different states of decommissioning as well. 4131 & 4051 appear to be mules stacked up on the back side of 20 track

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2 hours ago, bus_7246 said:

In the dead yard on 21 track, 4198 has been stripped, coupled to a damaged 4020 that was hit on the curb side at the front door. The damage bent the left side of the door pretty good that it’s definitely done. On 20 track, 4004, 4111, 4065 & 4150all lay in different states of decommissioning as well. 4131 & 4051 appear to be mules stacked up on the back side of 20 track

Was 4094 anywhere to be seen? 

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5 hours ago, bus_7246 said:

In the dead yard on 21 track, 4198 has been stripped, coupled to a damaged 4020 that was hit on the curb side at the front door. The damage bent the left side of the door pretty good that it’s definitely done. On 20 track, 4004, 4111, 4065 & 4150all lay in different states of decommissioning as well. 4131 & 4051 appear to be mules stacked up on the back side of 20 track

Any damage visible on 4198? Last photo sent to me last week it was still powered up and running. 4051 has crates of various parts in it apparently.

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39 minutes ago, Robert Lubinski said:

Any damage visible on 4198? Last photo sent to me last week it was still powered up and running. 4051 has crates of various parts in it apparently.

4198 has all the headlights and front track lights missing. Clear signs that it’s been laid to rest

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37 minutes ago, Matthew TTC 4120 said:

A few photos from today on 506. I was supposed to ride on 4132, but it was taken out of service due to a mechanical issue. I ended up riding on 4048 4119 on 506, and 4170 on 511.

20190727_143840.thumb.jpg.25fcfc2436f2307f122af4b67c27a74e.jpg20190727_144044.thumb.jpg.6d59f66bc507e20db37babd50c9504be.jpg20190727_145013.thumb.jpg.0f0fe1607c9c716778629e058cab5855.jpg20190727_150803.thumb.jpg.f104eb9658446fb5eca297375c7c4c43.jpg20190727_162853.thumb.jpg.a33583895ea45facf052214c47f740cd.jpg20190727_163551.thumb.jpg.b97ea6b74969b89d32db1d33a31e1a8c.jpg

 

Must’ve been temporary because the car is still out on the 506

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1. 4094 at Roncesvalles. It was shut off and not tracking at Russell for more than 10 days so at least it isn’t part of the scrap cars. 

2. New service summary notes 76 CLRVs and 6 ALRVs as of July 17th 

3. Both 4002 and 4003 tracked at some point today in the lake, but at least they were tracking. 

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