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TTC CLRV/ALRV updates and discussion


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On 3/19/2019 at 8:29 PM, Wayside Observer said:

It's been talked and bandied about for years, probably since the three cars ran in Boston, so it's far from being top secret, eyes only stuff.

Anyways, on the subject of off-TTC operations, I was talking with some friends a while ago and one of them's convinced that a CLRV was demonstrated on the Shaker Heights line in Cleveland back in the day.  Something about that sounds vaguely familiar like maybe the idea was contemplated at one point but I couldn't turn up anything online to conclusively prove or disprove it unlike the Boston and Swiss trials.  Does anybody know one way or the other for sure? 

The following is a 1989 Toronto Star article that mentions CLRVs in Cleveland briefly at the end. Not sure if it is true or not or this just fueled the rumor about CLRVs in Cleveland. 

ProQuestDocuments-2019-06-28.pdf

(Article use for research/personal only, no commercial distribution) 

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7 minutes ago, CLRV4002 said:

The following is a 1989 Toronto Star article that mentions CLRVs in Cleveland briefly at the end. Not sure if it is true or not or this just fueled the rumor about CLRVs in Cleveland. 

ProQuestDocuments-2019-06-28.pdf 199.9 kB · 4 downloads

(Article use for research/personal only, no commercial distribution) 

Thanks for posting that.  That was an interesting article.  Cleveland didn't have any CLRVs, not in 1989.  Ma ybe Al Leach was referring to the Breda fleet on the Shaker Heights line mistakenly thinking those were CLRVs?  If the TTC wasn't happy with how the CLRVs had turned out, they were in for a nice surprise with the ALRVs that were arriving and of course the H6 circus was already well underway by '89.

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Thanks for sharing that article. It's interesting to note that even after having 10 years to work them out they were so dissatisfied with how the CLRVs ended up turning out. Did they ever end up getting better?

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17 hours ago, CLRV4002 said:

The following is a 1989 Toronto Star article that mentions CLRVs in Cleveland briefly at the end. Not sure if it is true or not or this just fueled the rumor about CLRVs in Cleveland. 

ProQuestDocuments-2019-06-28.pdf 199.9 kB · 16 downloads

(Article use for research/personal only, no commercial distribution) 

Al Leach was not known for a lot of things, not the least of which was tact and research. Cleveland never had CLRVs, nor did they ever operate one. It is possible, however, that the Breda cars, which were built around the same time as the CLRVs, used the same right-angle gearbox that the CLRVs had.

 

Dan

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On 6/29/2019 at 9:39 AM, smallspy said:

Al Leach was not known for a lot of things, not the least of which was tact and research. Cleveland never had CLRVs, nor did they ever operate one. It is possible, however, that the Breda cars, which were built around the same time as the CLRVs, used the same right-angle gearbox that the CLRVs had.

 

Dan

Somehow APTA named him Transit Manager of the Year during that period.

I can't recall now where I read it (maybe farther back here?) but one of the TTC streetcar engineers reportedly said the CLRV fleet actually performed quite well in the 1990s and early 2000s, I think it was after some overhauls and tweaking of equipment. It seems it took a while to get all the bugs out but then they finally got their second wind.

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33 minutes ago, CLRV4002 said:

9A7A31C6-2DE2-4F5B-9DDB-F1DFD6E78A97.thumb.jpeg.5405c510281ed3655de6855a43e50a1f.jpeg

4012 has a front rollsign at the rear. Is this new ? 

There was a 401x with a front rollsign in the rear back in 2016-2017, as I remember riding it on 512. I am fairly certain it was 4012. 

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18 hours ago, CLRV4002 said:

Looking at the trackers there’s been quite a bit of ALRV movement in the yard. 4228 is tracking again after not reporting anything for over a month 

Indeed it is ... through 4221 has stopped reporting. 4249 is reporting as well, it had been off for a bit.
image.thumb.png.6e00090f498f4a2f1834a0ca21ad6037.png
 

 

 

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On July 1, 2019 at 9:52 AM, Robert Lubinski said:

Somehow APTA named him Transit Manager of the Year during that period.

I think the only thing that Al Leach was known for was the long run general neglect that led up to the subway crash and even that reputation was kind of retroactive since he was out of the TTC at that point.

On July 1, 2019 at 9:52 AM, Robert Lubinski said:

I can't recall now where I read it (maybe farther back here?) but one of the TTC streetcar engineers reportedly said the CLRV fleet actually performed quite well in the 1990s and early 2000s, I think it was after some overhauls and tweaking of equipment. It seems it took a while to get all the bugs out but then they finally got their second wind.

Are you thinking of the heavy midlife overhaul they got?  The CLRVs were solid for quite a while after that.  It was interesting to see how well the rebuilt ones ran compared to the ones that hadn't gone through the program yet at the time.  The ones that were waiting to get sent through the shop crapped out much more frequently.

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17 minutes ago, FabianColeyLOVESBUSES said:

4204 has its pole down inside Russell division. 

That might just be because they had shop guys working on the car. If the pole is up when guys are working on the car, someone may risk getting electrocuted 

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11 hours ago, bus_7246 said:

That might just be because they had shop guys working on the car. If the pole is up when guys are working on the car, someone may risk getting electrocuted 

The risk of electrocution carries on far after the pole has been pulled. And equally, there is a LOT of work that can be done while the pole is up.

 

Dan

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15 hours ago, bus_7246 said:

That might just be because they had shop guys working on the car. If the pole is up when guys are working on the car, someone may risk getting electrocuted 

More often than not you need the pole up and power on when you're working on a streetcar.  You need be able to make control power for the low voltage stuff, you need the compressor cycling to keep the air system charged up, you need high voltage power on the control package.  You can't troubleshoot, sequence test, etc. with the car dead.  Depending on the troubleshooting and repair work involved, pole up but with the necessary items cut out by dropping breakers, pulling fuses, opening cutout switches etc. is how you go about doing it and then pull the pole if something that can't otherwise be isolated needs to be worked on.

Second, and I've pointed it out in this thread before, some equipment boxes on everything CLRV and H5 and later have the schematic symbol for capacitors and/or a "Capacitors on line" warning.  There is serious energy storage in certain places in the traction circuit on these types of car that can persist even after the 600 V supply is disconnected.  I've written before about how I don't trust bleeder resistors if they're provided.  I've written before about discharging them and installing shorting bars while watching a meter to make sure the voltage goes down.  For that matter, I've seen nasty burnt motor cutout switches on a PCC car that happened when someone pulled them with the power off - but it was rolling a bit.  Whoever pulled them with the car rolling must've gotten a nasty surprise judging by how bad they looked.  Killing the 600 V feed isn't a guarantee of safety.  The unfortunate thing is it can be the reverse, that it can lead to a false sense of security and that is dangerous and when accidents can happen.

Serious question time.  Do high schools in Toronto even have shop classes anymore?

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The technology courses were being shuttered even when I graduated Agincourt Collegiate in 1998...full drafting classroom and equipped machine shop collecting dust. The only thing left was automotive.

Hopefully there’s been a bit of a renaissance since, with all the advances in robotics, CAD and PLC technologies. I honestly don’t know.

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9 hours ago, Robert Lubinski said:

4066 is missing in action, last ran on June 5, last tracked at Russell.

This one is done. I see it was coupled to 4065 at Russell, with the headlight and the left track light out

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5 hours ago, Bus_Medic said:

The technology courses were being shuttered even when I graduated Agincourt Collegiate in 1998...full drafting classroom and equipped machine shop collecting dust. The only thing left was automotive.

Hopefully there’s been a bit of a renaissance since, with all the advances in robotics, CAD and PLC technologies. I honestly don’t know.

Do you think that was a result of Mike Harris at the time or changing attitudes and priorities at the Toronto Board of Education, or maybe both?

What prompted me to ask the question in the first place is that there's a stunning lack of a grasp of the basics out there now.  I'm not expecting a high school to teach how to fix a CLRV or anything specific like that but from comments I've seen here and elsewhere, it's clear that a lot of younger people don't understand a number of important related points:

  • It is possible to work on live equipment safely
  • For troubleshooting and testing, working on live equipment is necessary

When I went through high school there were a full set of shops along the back of the building.  Automotive, wood, machine/metal, welding, and one of the shops had been repurposed with a set of drafting tables down one side and a row of computers (386 SX!  Powerhouses!) running an earlier DOS based version of AutoCAD and one of the assignments was to export a gerber style file to run a CNC milling machine to cut the design you made into a piece of wood.  They also taught the house wiring and the electronics class in the same room.  I think the writing was starting to go on the wall even then.  I didn't sign up for the electronics class after I heard that they wouldn't allow capacitors to be used in the class because of "safety concerns".  Anyways, I really think a lot of the generic, broadly applicable basics should be covered in a mandatory Gr. 9 intro to shop class.  I can't imagine what the TTC goes through trying to find people to work on streetcars and subway cars.  I should've asked about that at the Eglinton Crosstown open house.  Where are they finding people to work on the equipment?  All we get at work now are IT software people and it shows.  They're not good at hardware.  They're lost on the electronics side of what we do and they'd be totally lost on a CLRV.  And in the case of totally de-energizing one to work on it, add blindfolded.

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50 minutes ago, Wayside Observer said:

I saw 4071 on the 507 this morning.  It's missing the TTC crest on the open side of the car.  Someone's got to pull it out of service until this crucial defect is fixed.

Definitely not happening lol. I remember 6671 or 6674 (I can’t remember which on now) ran without logos on the front and sides for an extended period of time before receiving them well after being refurbished 

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