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TTC—GO fare agreement


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I've been trying to resist the urge to even talk about this ridiculous "pilot project", but after some thought I decided to bring it up anyways just to get a sense of if anyone else thinks this is as big of a joke as I think it is. I mean really...after some "deep discussion between Metrolinx and the TTC" this is the best they couldve come up with. Someone in Grade 5 would have come up with better suggestions then this:

"Fare Integration"

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Why would it be, exactly?

And perhaps you two don't quite understand the point of a "pilot project".

Dan

On the contrary, if one wants to make the results a "pilot project" successful at least set it up in a way where it makes sense and so it can reach the intended goals. I mean really, who is going to take the TTC half way, get off and then transfer to a GO Train which is already packed to capacity at rush hour and pay an extra $60/month to make their lives more miserable (that's one of many examples where this does not make sense). The way the project is designed makes little sense if you look at it in depth.

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Why would it be, exactly?

Because you also can test how well it could work as a "DRL lite". It won't eliminate the need for the DRL or allow the city to push it off to the future. However, it would be a good way to see if it could impact trips originating north of Sheppard. Also, it might make the Sheppard line slightly less useless.

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I mean really, who is going to take the TTC half way, get off and then transfer to a GO Train which is already packed to capacity at rush hour and pay an extra $60/month to make their lives more miserable (that's one of many examples where this does not make sense). The way the project is designed makes little sense if you look at it in depth.

I don't think anyone would change from the Danforth subway, unless perhaps they literally worked in Union Station - or perhaps just south of there.. And yet lots of people already pay $180 a month just to take GO from Danforth to Union. Presumably most of those folk would happily pay an extra $12 on top of that $180 to get unlimited TTC ridership.

The target audience isn't the people who got on the Danforth subway at Kennedy, Victoria Park, and Warden (about 130,000 of them a day). It's the 26,000 a day who board at Main Street. Of course most of those 26,000 aren't travelling to Union Station, or even anywhere near it, so only a fraction would even consider it.

And of course the bigger target is Liberty Village - which not only has no subway option, but has a gridlocked streetcar.

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Of course most of those 26,000 aren't travelling to Union Station, or even anywhere near it, so only a fraction would even consider it.

Actually, when you consider how long it takes to get to Union by GO vs how far you travel along the BD line in the same length of time, you might find that it doesn't really matter if your destination is at Union or not.

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Because you also can test how well it could work as a "DRL lite". It won't eliminate the need for the DRL or allow the city to push it off to the future. However, it would be a good way to see if it could impact trips originating north of Sheppard. Also, it might make the Sheppard line slightly less useless.

A "DRL lite" would at least be TTC-fare, no? A DRL lite with a $2/day extra fare and lousy headways is nowhere near like a DRL that would be a free transfer and five or six minute headways.

And of course the bigger target is Liberty Village - which not only has no subway option, but has a gridlocked streetcar.

Unless those Bright Young Things living in Liberty Village all work in the bank towers close to Union, I don't see how trooping down to the GO station, waiting for an infrequent train (even in peak period), and then trooping out with the human salmon rush at Union station is going to help. All for $2/day extra.

More than half the peak period trains bypass Union station. It's about a half-hour headway at all times, and it's pretty ragged in the AM.

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What would really make sense is that for that extra fare you could take the GO from Kennedy to Kipling. And to stations like Old Cummer, Orioe, Agincourt, Long Branch, Mimico, Eglinton, etc.

That would make sense. Call it an express fare or something.

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On the contrary, if one wants to make the results a "pilot project" successful at least set it up in a way where it makes sense and so it can reach the intended goals. I mean really, who is going to take the TTC half way, get off and then transfer to a GO Train which is already packed to capacity at rush hour and pay an extra $60/month to make their lives more miserable (that's one of many examples where this does not make sense). The way the project is designed makes little sense if you look at it in depth.

A "pilot project", by definition, is one where a very small-scale experiment is done within very specific parameters and at a minimal cost and risk to see whether it is reasonable and feasible to be later rolled out as a larger permanent addition to a system.

Adding Kennedy, Mimico, Bloor, Oriole, Scarborough, and any number of other stations suggested here and elsewhere to it no longer makes it a "pilot project", as the project now becomes so widely spread as to potentially have a serious cost effect.

Is the current "pilot project" going to have an overall effect on ridership? More than likely no, it won't. But they aren't certain, and they have a number of groups that are clamoring for some regional improvements, so they are trying it out to see what happens.

Because you also can test how well it could work as a "DRL lite". It won't eliminate the need for the DRL or allow the city to push it off to the future. However, it would be a good way to see if it could impact trips originating north of Sheppard. Also, it might make the Sheppard line slightly less useless.

Once again, for the n-teeth time, the Richmond Hill Line can never become a DRL for any number of different and unfixable reasons, not the least of which are it being too slow, having poor access to the line from the surrounding neighborhoods to potential stations, having no convenient locations for additional stations downtown, and having an impossible transfer between the B-D and the line.

Dan

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Most of the GO train stations are located in very inconvenient locations. Having TTC buses serve them, increasing service to 10-15 minute headways, running bidirectional trains and expanding them to 6am-10pm service hours would help. Otherwise GO will never to a option for 99% of the TTC riders.

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Actually, when you consider how long it takes to get to Union by GO vs how far you travel along the BD line in the same length of time, you might find that it doesn't really matter if your destination is at Union or not.

I'm not sure what you mean. 10 minutes from Danforth on GO gets you to Union (14 minutes if you believe the timetable). Main to Bloor-Yonge is 15 minutes.

If you destination is University of Toronto, Eglinton/Yonge, or Ryerson ... how does is matter if your destination is at Union or not.

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I'm not sure what you mean. 10 minutes from Danforth on GO gets you to Union (14 minutes if you believe the timetable). Main to Bloor-Yonge is 15 minutes.

If you destination is University of Toronto, Eglinton/Yonge, or Ryerson ... how does is matter if your destination is at Union or not.

I fail to see how a UT student would want to pay $60 more and have less scheduled services and make a horrible transfer at Union when they can instead take a train from Main Station to St George. If they take a bus to Main Station, they'll have to walk out of the station and wait for a GO Train in the cold.

Ryerson might be better off if the student have morning classes and want to avoid Bloor-Yonge. Otherwise, it doesn't make sense either.

Students general don't have extra cash to spend on stuff like a GO sticker so I doubt they are the target audiences.

This must be another political move to make the Liberals look better and bring nothing useful to 99% of the population.

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A "pilot project", by definition, is one where a very small-scale experiment is done within very specific parameters and at a minimal cost and risk to see whether it is reasonable and feasible to be later rolled out as a larger permanent addition to a system.

Adding Kennedy, Mimico, Bloor, Oriole, Scarborough, and any number of other stations suggested here and elsewhere to it no longer makes it a "pilot project", as the project now becomes so widely spread as to potentially have a serious cost effect.

Is the current "pilot project" going to have an overall effect on ridership? More than likely no, it won't. But they aren't certain, and they have a number of groups that are clamoring for some regional improvements, so they are trying it out to see what happens.

Dan

This is a good point you raise Dan, adding other stations certainly no longer makes it a pilot project which is why I didn't suggest it but other people should look at your point.

The thing with the "pilot" that Metrolinx clearly knows is a problem, but is failing to address is all of the express trains that roll in from the west which don't stop at Exhibition, leaving the remaining trains which actually stop there very close to capacity. So looking at it from the way in which this project is going to be implemented, people are essentially going to be stuck with taking an infrequently scheduled and packed GO Train, or the 504 which is packed and outright skips stops as a result. As a result, I only see little trickles of people who are going to try this out (at least from the west end). This is unless they convert some express trains to make them stop at Exhibition.

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I'm not sure what you mean. 10 minutes from Danforth on GO gets you to Union (14 minutes if you believe the timetable). Main to Bloor-Yonge is 15 minutes.

And in the morning, there's the five-minute shuffle through the GO train, out the door, and down the narrow stairwells at Union. Not appealing.

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Once again, for the n-teeth time, the Richmond Hill Line can never become a DRL for any number of different and unfixable reasons, not the least of which are it being too slow, having poor access to the line from the surrounding neighborhoods to potential stations, having no convenient locations for additional stations downtown, and having an impossible transfer between the B-D and the line.

Congratulations on replying to the first sentence of my post. If you kept reading, you would notice that I was using "DRL lite" to refer to reducing pressure on the the Yonge line in areas that would not be covered by the actual DRL.

At the same time, you know that GO transit has been kicking around the idea of shifting Oriole north to Sheppard for decades. As a result, it seems strange to skip over having Oriole during the pilot since the connection can actually be improved at a later date. This in contrast the insane belief that large numbers of people would be willing to interrupt their subway trip to the core to walk to Danforth GO from Main as those supporting this pilot project hope will happen.

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I fail to see how a UT student would want to pay $60 more and have less scheduled services and make a horrible transfer at Union when they can instead take a train from Main Station to St George.

Precisely! My point exactly!

This must be another political move to make the Liberals look better and bring nothing useful to 99% of the population.

So the Liberals should do nothing for those in Kenora because it doesn't help 99% of the population!?!? What kind of thinking is that?

This is very useful for residents in both the Liberty and Danforth areas already using the GO Train, and having to pay a lot of $ for TTC on top of that. This is something both groups asked for. And is a reasonable first step and experiment.

I really don't see the need to make this political. There have been NDP, Liberal, and Conservative politicians pushing for what was just announced.

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The thing with the "pilot" that Metrolinx clearly knows is a problem, but is failing to address is all of the express trains that roll in from the west which don't stop at Exhibition, leaving the remaining trains which actually stop there very close to capacity. So looking at it from the way in which this project is going to be implemented, people are essentially going to be stuck with taking an infrequently scheduled and packed GO Train, or the 504 which is packed and outright skips stops as a result. As a result, I only see little trickles of people who are going to try this out (at least from the west end). This is unless they convert some express trains to make them stop at Exhibition.

Two problems with your point:

1. You assume that there will be lots of people using this pilot. Maybe I'm being pessimistic, but I doubt that there will be a triple-digit increase in ridership from either Danforth or Exhibition due to it.

2. You assume that there is room on the express trains to fit more passengers. There isn't. Hell, I think what they are doing on the east end by having the expresses and Stouffville trains stopping at Danforth is absolutely ridiculous. The only saving grace is that it's not likely to last.

Congratulations on replying to the first sentence of my post. If you kept reading, you would notice that I was using "DRL lite" to refer to reducing pressure on the the Yonge line in areas that would not be covered by the actual DRL.

At the same time, you know that GO transit has been kicking around the idea of shifting Oriole north to Sheppard for decades. As a result, it seems strange to skip over having Oriole during the pilot since the connection can actually be improved at a later date. This in contrast the insane belief that large numbers of people would be willing to interrupt their subway trip to the core to walk to Danforth GO from Main as those supporting this pilot project hope will happen.

Then that's even more ridiculous. What do you expect people to do, get on the subway at Finch, take it down to Sheppard and then the Sheppard Line across to Leslie?

The vast majority of the people for whom the Richmond Hill Line is an option are already using it. What possible benefit would offering them a cheaper fare do, other than worsening GO's bottom line?

Dan

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Two problems with your point:

1. You assume that there will be lots of people using this pilot. Maybe I'm being pessimistic, but I doubt that there will be a triple-digit increase in ridership from either Danforth or Exhibition due to it.

2. You assume that there is room on the express trains to fit more passengers. There isn't. Hell, I think what they are doing on the east end by having the expresses and Stouffville trains stopping at Danforth is absolutely ridiculous. The only saving grace is that it's not likely to last.

1. What do you mean triple digit. 100%? Seems unlikely. 100 people? That's about 2 extra riders per train (there must be about 50 trains a day now between Danforth and Union).

2. There's lots of room. I've taken PM rush-hour trains out of Union to both Exhibition and Danforth. Generally there's been lots of space to stand. One one occasion the car I got into heading into Exhibition was massively packed ... however there seemed to be space on the next level, so I pushed my way through what might be the most sheepish bunch of commuters I've ever encountered - including a couple of morons who thought it was acceptable to be sitting on the stairs, blocking everyone in. When I got through, not only was there lots of place to stand on the mid-level. There were actually some empty seats on the upper level! 5 minutes later I pushed my way through the same idiots - many of whom weren't actually getting off at Exhibition - so I have no idea why they were all crowded on the stairs and near the door. (when I got off, I noticed that the car I was in, was more crowded than most of the other cars ... but as I was running late, I'd jumped in the end of the train, rather than much further down where I normally stand when getting off at Exhibition).

As far as I can tell, there is plenty of room on the trains - but GO does need to deal with the idiots who don't move back, and just want to stand as close to the door as possible.

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1. What do you mean triple digit. 100%? Seems unlikely. 100 people? That's about 2 extra riders per train (there must be about 50 trains a day now between Danforth and Union).

2. There's lots of room. I've taken PM rush-hour trains out of Union to both Exhibition and Danforth. Generally there's been lots of space to stand. One one occasion the car I got into heading into Exhibition was massively packed ... however there seemed to be space on the next level, so I pushed my way through what might be the most sheepish bunch of commuters I've ever encountered - including a couple of morons who thought it was acceptable to be sitting on the stairs, blocking everyone in. When I got through, not only was there lots of place to stand on the mid-level. There were actually some empty seats on the upper level! 5 minutes later I pushed my way through the same idiots - many of whom weren't actually getting off at Exhibition - so I have no idea why they were all crowded on the stairs and near the door. (when I got off, I noticed that the car I was in, was more crowded than most of the other cars ... but as I was running late, I'd jumped in the end of the train, rather than much further down where I normally stand when getting off at Exhibition).

As far as I can tell, there is plenty of room on the trains - but GO does need to deal with the idiots who don't move back, and just want to stand as close to the door as possible.

1) If I was talking percentages, I would have used percentages. However, I'm talking absolute riders.

2) Three of the trains inbound in the mornings on the Lakeshore East Line are currently running over 110% capacity. Two of the inbound Stouffville Line trains are also over that same number. Sure, there may be some room on the other trains that aren't running right at the very peak of the rush hour, but by and large most GO trains are running close to or just over capacity.

If you look at GO's own site, they state that they are trying to have seats available for 80% of all of their customers - and that they are currently holding at 62%.

Dan

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2) Three of the trains inbound in the mornings on the Lakeshore East Line are currently running over 110% capacity. Two of the inbound Stouffville Line trains are also over that same number. Sure, there may be some room on the other trains that aren't running right at the very peak of the rush hour, but by and large most GO trains are running close to or just over capacity.

If you look at GO's own site, they state that they are trying to have seats available for 80% of all of their customers - and that they are currently holding at 62%.

If they are currently 110% over capacity, why do I always see space on GO Trains - particularly at the west end, or in spots in the middle? For example, there seldom seems to be anyone standing on the upper deck.

And why are we not flooded by reports of people who couldn't board their train, and had to wait until the next one.

Capacity for GO seems to be understated - which is oddly the reverse of the TTC.

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This is very useful for residents in both the Liberty and Danforth areas already using the GO Train, and having to pay a lot of $ for TTC on top of that. This is something both groups asked for. And is a reasonable first step and experiment.

I really don't see the need to make this political. There have been NDP, Liberal, and Conservative politicians pushing for what was just announced.

It will only be "very useful" to those who at present invest in a Metropass and also take the GO train. They save some money. I find it very difficult to imagine a lot of new users. GO train riders who don't currently buy a Metropass, or Metropass users who currently don't much ride the GO train, are unlikely to suddenly switch.

Ironically, I think the pilot program would have considerably greater uptake if Mimico and Long Branch stations were included. The time savings to downtown via GO train from south Etobicoke are much more significant than what you gain from Exhibition, or even Danforth.

1. What do you mean triple digit. 100%? Seems unlikely. 100 people? That's about 2 extra riders per train (there must be about 50 trains a day now between Danforth and Union).

2. There's lots of room. I've taken PM rush-hour trains out of Union to both Exhibition and Danforth. Generally there's been lots of space to stand. One one occasion the car I got into heading into Exhibition was massively packed ... however there seemed to be space on the next level, so I pushed my way through what might be the most sheepish bunch of commuters I've ever encountered - including a couple of morons who thought it was acceptable to be sitting on the stairs, blocking everyone in. When I got through, not only was there lots of place to stand on the mid-level. There were actually some empty seats on the upper level! 5 minutes later I pushed my way through the same idiots - many of whom weren't actually getting off at Exhibition - so I have no idea why they were all crowded on the stairs and near the door. (when I got off, I noticed that the car I was in, was more crowded than most of the other cars ... but as I was running late, I'd jumped in the end of the train, rather than much further down where I normally stand when getting off at Exhibition).

As far as I can tell, there is plenty of room on the trains - but GO does need to deal with the idiots who don't move back, and just want to stand as close to the door as possible.

If they are currently 110% over capacity, why do I always see space on GO Trains - particularly at the west end, or in spots in the middle? For example, there seldom seems to be anyone standing on the upper deck.

You answered your question in your own previous post. There are people who start making their way to the doors to make a quicker (never say "quick") exit at Union, as well as the ding-dongs who like to hang on the steps and in the doorways. Anyway, what's the attraction of pushing yourself on at Exhibition through these doofuses, pushing your way up the stairs to stand in the "lacking standees" upper level, then being stuck in the infinitely slow shuffle off the train a few minutes later?

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It will only be "very useful" to those who at present invest in a Metropass and also take the GO train. They save some money. I find it very difficult to imagine a lot of new users. GO train riders who don't currently buy a Metropass, or Metropass users who currently don't much ride the GO train, are unlikely to suddenly switch.

It also benefits those who presently don't invest in a Metropass and take the GO Train. (using Danforth as an example, and using the new 2015 GO and TTC pricing) the cost of GO is currently $181.60 a month. The cost of GO+TTC is only $198.75 a month (assuming a Metropass costs $138.75 after today's 10¢/ride increase). So for $17.15 you get Metropass. With Metropass you need 42 rides a month to make it worthwhile. But if your Metropass only cost $17.15 ($14.58 after the tax credit) it pays for itself in 6 trips rather than 42.

While I suspect there are many currently using GO who don't make 42 other TTC trips in a month. I bet a lot take 6 TTC trips a month! It would be therefore very useful for someone who currently takes GO and takes 10 other TTC trips a month. And surely someone who lives by a subway station and is using GO to go downtown, is occasionally also using the TTC.

Ironically, I think the pilot program would have considerably greater uptake if Mimico and Long Branch stations were included. The time savings to downtown via GO train from south Etobicoke are much more significant than what you gain from Exhibition, or even Danforth.

I think you are correct. However the goal for the trial was to be revenue neutral. They might be afraid they wouldn't achieve this for those stations!

You answered your question in your own previous post. There are people who start making their way to the doors to make a quicker (never say "quick") exit at Union, as well as the ding-dongs who like to hang on the steps and in the doorways. Anyway, what's the attraction of pushing yourself on at Exhibition through these doofuses, pushing your way up the stairs to stand in the "lacking standees" upper level, then being stuck in the infinitely slow shuffle off the train a few minutes later?

It's not overcapacity then. We don't let everyone on the streetcar stand at the front door. TTC constantly enforces and announces "move to the back". GO Transit needs to start enforcing this, and fining those who sit on the steps blocking people from moving back.

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It also benefits those who presently don't invest in a Metropass and take the GO Train. (using Danforth as an example, and using the new 2015 GO and TTC pricing) the cost of GO is currently $181.60 a month. The cost of GO+TTC is only $198.75 a month (assuming a Metropass costs $138.75 after today's 10¢/ride increase). So for $17.15 you get Metropass. With Metropass you need 42 rides a month to make it worthwhile. But if your Metropass only cost $17.15 ($14.58 after the tax credit) it pays for itself in 6 trips rather than 42.

While I suspect there are many currently using GO who don't make 42 other TTC trips in a month. I bet a lot take 6 TTC trips a month! It would be therefore very useful for someone who currently takes GO and takes 10 other TTC trips a month. And surely someone who lives by a subway station and is using GO to go downtown, is occasionally also using the TTC.

The new "fare integration" then basically benefits current GO riders, not current TTC riders. Surely the goal was to help TTC riders, who couldn't get on overcrowded streetcars and subways, not to provide GO riders with cheap rides on the TTC?

It's not overcapacity then. We don't let everyone on the streetcar stand at the front door. TTC constantly enforces and announces "move to the back". GO Transit needs to start enforcing this, and fining those who sit on the steps blocking people from moving back.

:blink::rolleyes:

"For customer convenience, please move back". A few people look around (while others pretend not to hear, or not to understand English) and no one moves. Even with all-door boarding, the back of streetcars usually have plenty of standing room, and possibly seats, even though there are people hanging out the front doors.

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The new "fare integration" then basically benefits current GO riders, not current TTC riders. Surely the goal was to help TTC riders, who couldn't get on overcrowded streetcars and subways, not to provide GO riders with cheap rides on the TTC?

For those that were torn between GO and TTC, but chose TTC over GO because they also needed TTC, it turns there monthly transit choice from about $300 for GO/TTC, $180 for just GO, or $125 with just TTC to about $190 for GO/TTC, $180 for just GO, or $125 with just TTC.

That must cause some modal shift. I can't imagine the marginal sensitivities are null.

"For customer convenience, please move back". A few people look around (while others pretend not to hear, or not to understand English) and no one moves. Even with all-door boarding, the back of streetcars usually have plenty of standing room, and possibly seats, even though there are people hanging out the front doors.

There always seems to be some shuffle. Sometimes a lot.

If it doesn't work, and the operator then says "I'm not moving this vehicle until people move back, and everyone is over the white line", then I'm yet to see movement not happen!

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