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17 hours ago, Andythagiant said:

4572 has been released from Kingston. They have black fleet numbers on the front of the car which hasn’t been seen since 4400-4402 were still prototypes. Wonder if they will be replaced with the standard white decals?

The spec for the cars - which has never changed - was for black numbers to be mounted on the front above the destination sign. At the least the first dozen cars from Thunder Bay were delivered with black numbers up there, but to be honest photos of cars on delivery are pretty hard to find nowadays and so I'm not sure if they still are, or if they're not even installing numbers anymore.

 

It was realized long ago that black numbers were not particularly visible when located up there, so the TTC installs white ones shortly after each car's delivery. But the spec was never changed with Bombardier, and so they continue to be delivered with black numbers up there. It may very well be that Bombardier demanded a charge for that particular spec change that the TTC felt was inordinately high, and so has left it at the status quo.


Dan

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54 minutes ago, smallspy said:

The spec for the cars - which has never changed - was for black numbers to be mounted on the front above the destination sign. At the least the first dozen cars from Thunder Bay were delivered with black numbers up there, but to be honest photos of cars on delivery are pretty hard to find nowadays and so I'm not sure if they still are, or if they're not even installing numbers anymore.

[…]But the spec was never changed with Bombardier, and so they continue to be delivered with black numbers up there.[…]

This is incorrect.

Only the 3 prototype cars (4400, 4401 & 4402) were delivered with black numbers on the front.

However, all production cars from Thunder Bay have been delivered with no fleet numbers at all in that location. The white numbers are applied at Leslie, after delivery.

Here is 4403, the first production car being delivered on May 31, 2014

 

Another example, 4411 on 15-Sep-2015:

 

And here is a recent example, 4494 at Queen & Bathurst on Aug. 15, 2018, deadheading to Leslie on the day of delivery (do not know the author of the picture).

 

4494_Aug_15_2018_FirstTriptoLeslieAfterDelivery_pic2.jpg

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11 hours ago, drum118 said:

4512 just left the yard and days ahead of last batch of cars.

With 4513 here and 4572 inbound , I imagine 4512 got higher priority for its post delivery work so it could be put out into testing

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3 hours ago, dowlingm said:

With 4513 here and 4572 inbound , I imagine 4512 got higher priority for its post delivery work so it could be put out into testing

4514 & 4515 to be off loaded Monday & Tuesday if info is correct being here now. 4516 in transit as well 4572. Wonder what happen to 4570 & 71 that were to be the first 2 cars from Kingston??

4512 is traveling every route it can today to the point it spending its time going to Main Station now and the past few hours.

Still got 5 more to come from from TB and one from Kingston to make this year schedule for delivery. In service will not be met, since 4521 is the last car if 2 cars come from Kingston, otherwise 4522. Those cars may make it out the doors by Dec 14, but will they make it here by the 21??? No way they will see service this year. Could be about mid Jan for them to get into service.

4512 should be in service by this Friday if no issues surface during testing.

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7 hours ago, ttc rider said:

This is incorrect.

Only the 3 prototype cars (4400, 4401 & 4402) were delivered with black numbers on the front.

However, all production cars from Thunder Bay have been delivered with no fleet numbers at all in that location. The white numbers are applied at Leslie, after delivery.

Here is 4403, the first production car being delivered on May 31, 2014

 

Another example, 4411 on 15-Sep-2015:

 

And here is a recent example, 4494 at Queen & Bathurst on Aug. 15, 2018, deadheading to Leslie on the day of delivery (do not know the author of the picture).

 

4494_Aug_15_2018_FirstTriptoLeslieAfterDelivery_pic2.jpg

After I posted, I went looking and could only find photos of 4416 on delivery that clearly showed the front. I was going by memory, and I guess my memory let me down.

 

Thanks for the correction.

 

That said, the point about the spec still stands. The TTC has never told Bombardier to change to white numbers, or at least has never agreed to whatever price - if any - Bombardier demanded for the change.

 

Dan

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On 12/7/2018 at 10:41 PM, ttc rider said:

Car 4512 has begun on-street testing this afternoon.

4512 seen testing on Queen West Saturday night!

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4512 & 4513 are out testing now. 4513 on Richmond and 4512 just left the yard.

If 4512 does an in service test today, we will see it in service Wed-Fri if no issues surface.

4512 has been out almost 24 hours testing since it started test, with a short visit to the service bay daily, except today where it spent more time and its GPS was elsewhere.

The earliest we may see 4513 in service could be around Dec 17th.

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A new car was offloaded at Hillcrest this morning (i.e. Tue, Dec. 11).

It was delivered by CP late last night, and I didn't catch the number; however, I presume it is either 4514 or 4515.

Does anyone know the correct unit number?

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7 hours ago, ttc rider said:

A new car was offloaded at Hillcrest this morning (i.e. Tue, Dec. 11).

It was delivered by CP late last night, and I didn't catch the number; however, I presume it is either 4514 or 4515.

Does anyone know the correct unit number?

Been reported it was 4514 with 4515 tomorrow, but don't hold me to it. 4516 in transit and 4517 ready to be pickup. 4572 has been transfer from CN to CP.

4512 bring prep for service.

4513 been waiting hours for a slot in the service bay.

Based on what I see and doing some guessing, since every things depend on when cars are off loaded and doing testing in 10 day if no issues surface for service, 4517 could be the last car to enter service this year. Unless if CP is willing to drop cars off on the 27, 28 and 31, the 21 is the last day for cars being off loaded for this year.

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So is Bombardier behind or on schedule for the end of this year? Normally I watch the TTC board meetings on youtube  and they talk about it, but there hasn't been a board meeting in a while because of the elections.

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3 minutes ago, MK78 said:

So is Bombardier behind or on schedule for the end of this year? Normally I watch the TTC board meetings on youtube  and they talk about it, but there hasn't been a board meeting in a while because of the elections.

There were on schedule, or very close, through the end of Q3 (end of September). Looks like they'll come in about 4-6 or so units short in Q4. Looks like Thunder Bay production will similar to previous quarters, but the 6-7 units from Kingston will only be 1-2. I'm assuming they didn't get Kingston production going as quickly as they desired.

But for once, we are only taking weeks late, instead of months and years. Will anyone lose sleep really if they finish the 204 car order in February 2020 instead of December 2019? And who knows, they may catch up yet.

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1 hour ago, nfitz said:

There were on schedule, or very close, through the end of Q3 (end of September). Looks like they'll come in about 4-6 or so units short in Q4. Looks like Thunder Bay production will similar to previous quarters, but the 6-7 units from Kingston will only be 1-2. I'm assuming they didn't get Kingston production going as quickly as they desired.

But for once, we are only taking weeks late, instead of months and years. Will anyone lose sleep really if they finish the 204 car order in February 2020 instead of December 2019? And who knows, they may catch up yet.

If that happens to come with a handful of free streetcars for missing the final deadline, I think everyone will hope Feb 2020.

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4 minutes ago, 63 Ossington said:

If that happens to come with a handful of free streetcars for missing the final deadline, I think everyone will hope Feb 2020.

I wonder if the back and forth between Bombardier and TTC/city has resumed after the election regarding a settlement for the delivery delays and resulting costs incurred so far.  Also, the window to exercise the option order on additional cars is only going to remain open for so long which means the TTC/city of Toronto are going to have to make a decision on that soon and if anything's been discussed about that since the elections, I haven't heard anything.

Honestly, can they just get down to business and buy enough streetcars to run the level of service the system desperately needs?  The streetcar system's been constrained for vehicles for decades now and the resulting limitations it imposes on service levels got old a long time ago.

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2 hours ago, nfitz said:

There were on schedule, or very close, through the end of Q3 (end of September). Looks like they'll come in about 4-6 or so units short in Q4. Looks like Thunder Bay production will similar to previous quarters, but the 6-7 units from Kingston will only be 1-2. I'm assuming they didn't get Kingston production going as quickly as they desired.

But for once, we are only taking weeks late, instead of months and years. Will anyone lose sleep really if they finish the 204 car order in February 2020 instead of December 2019? And who knows, they may catch up yet.

Another January and February with the old streetcars? Where can we sign up?

Remember last year when you said the contract option should be exercised ASAP because at the time Bombardier had proven they could deliver 60 cars a year? They have yet to prove it and they're going to fall short of 60 yet again even with an extra line on the job. Kingston is already months behind, it's another case of believe it when I see it.

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6 hours ago, Wayside Observer said:

I wonder if the back and forth between Bombardier and TTC/city has resumed after the election regarding a settlement for the delivery delays and resulting costs incurred so far.  Also, the window to exercise the option order on additional cars is only going to remain open for so long which means the TTC/city of Toronto are going to have to make a decision on that soon and if anything's been discussed about that since the elections, I haven't heard anything.

Honestly, can they just get down to business and buy enough streetcars to run the level of service the system desperately needs?  The streetcar system's been constrained for vehicles for decades now and the resulting limitations it imposes on service levels got old a long time ago.

It wouldn't be possible for the TTC to sue Bombardier for damage beyond the amount stated in their agreement. TTC has to assume some risk that they wouldn't be delivered anyways. We all know things don't go always as planned.

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3 hours ago, Xtrazsteve said:

It wouldn't be possible for the TTC to sue Bombardier for damage beyond the amount stated in their agreement.

That's not true at all. The TTC can absolutely sue Bombardier, and have threatened to do so many times over the years due to this contract.

 

A negotiated settlement is always the preferred solution however, as it can usually end up working out well for both parties.


Dan

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12 hours ago, Wayside Observer said:

I wonder if the back and forth between Bombardier and TTC/city has resumed after the election regarding a settlement for the delivery delays and resulting costs incurred so far.  Also, the window to exercise the option order on additional cars is only going to remain open for so long which means the TTC/city of Toronto are going to have to make a decision on that soon and if anything's been discussed about that since the elections, I haven't heard anything.

Honestly, can they just get down to business and buy enough streetcars to run the level of service the system desperately needs?  The streetcar system's been constrained for vehicles for decades now and the resulting limitations it imposes on service levels got old a long time ago.

Who going to pay for these extra cars and how much will the City have to pay, considering they aren't in any TTC budgets nor approved by the City?

Who is on TTC Commission as well who is the new chair, with TTC meeting on Dec 18??

TTC management has been working with BBD while there been no Commission on coming to some sort of agreement, but needs Commission approval to move forward on the agreement, if the Commission approves the agreement.

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2 hours ago, smallspy said:

That's not true at all. The TTC can absolutely sue Bombardier, and have threatened to do so many times over the years due to this contract.

 

A negotiated settlement is always the preferred solution however, as it can usually end up working out well for both parties.


Dan

Not to mention there's also a working example of Metrolinx having sued Bombardier over the delivery woes with their vehicles.  Metrolinx lost that one though.

3 minutes ago, drum118 said:

Who going to pay for these extra cars and how much will the City have to pay, considering they aren't in any TTC budgets nor approved by the City?

Who is on TTC Commission as well who is the new chair, with TTC meeting on Dec 18??

Good question.  If our politicians were doing their jobs, and I'll admit that's a very big if, they should have been laying some framework on this before the elections so that exercising the option isn't a clean sheet start from scratch process to line up funding etc.  If I was to hazard a guess based on John Tory's record to date I'd say his position's likely to be "someone else" is going to pay for it.

I can totally see John Tory getting in front of the cameras and doing another one of those rambling woodfaced press conferences of his where he uses a thousand words where a hundred will do and he'll talk about "how important it is to get those streetcars in and there's going to be costs associated with buying those streetcars and that's an expense that shouldn't have to be carried by Toronto and other governments should step up to the plate with their broader reaching taxation powers to foot the bill..." and so on that he goes off incessantly about.  For all that John Tory complains about putting on the short pants and going begging at Queen's Park like a little boy, he sure loves going up there and panhandling.  I bet sometime in the early-mid new year we get to hear the mayor of Toronto rambling about how people living in fly-in, fly-out communities along the James Bay coastline should not only be required to dig a little deeper, they should be happy to dig a little deeper to pay for Toronto's streetcar option order because they benefit from hipsters going on summer wilderness fishing trips up there, or something else like that.

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14 hours ago, WoodbineSecondExit said:

Another January and February with the old streetcars? Where can we sign up?

That's going to be true whether they have all 204 done in 2019 or not. TTC have been planning for several years to have about 20 or so old cars to provide all the peak service, until additional cars beyond 204 are ordered and delivered.

 

14 hours ago, WoodbineSecondExit said:

Remember last year when you said the contract option should be exercised ASAP because at the time Bombardier had proven they could deliver 60 cars a year? They have yet to prove it and they're going to fall short of 60 yet again even with an extra line on the job. Kingston is already months behind, it's another case of believe it when I see it.

Kingston is behind, sure. But they don't need Kingston to make about 60 cars a year. Kingston is necessary to make about 80 to 85 cars a year.

They have already delivered 56 cars this year, (4460 through 4615). And it's reported above that 3 more have been already shipped (4416, 4417, and 4472).

I'm not sure why you are saying that Bombardier has yet to show they can do 60 cars a year, when they are on target to deliver 60 cars in 2018. And they delivered 33 cars during the last 6 months (June through November). In the last year from December 13 2017 to December 12 2018 (today) they delivered 60 cars (4456 to 4415) - all from Thunder Bay.

We should have already ordered the 60 additional cars. At this point, we are only shooting ourselves in the foot. We could have had them all in 2020 ... now it's probably 2021 at best, and if they go elsewhere, then maybe we get a test car in 2024 - and likely for far more $.

Remember the second lowest bidder was about $7.5 million a car (for 204 cars) compared to Bombardier's option price of $3 million per car for any additional cars beyond 204.
 

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