ttc rider Posted January 2, 2018 Report Share Posted January 2, 2018 Car 4460 was at the Hillcrest dock over the long weekend, so it will likely be off-loaded today. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Transit geek Posted January 2, 2018 Report Share Posted January 2, 2018 4 hours ago, ttc rider said: Car 4460 was at the Hillcrest dock over the long weekend, so it will likely be off-loaded today. Wasn't 4460 planned to be the last of the cars to be delivered with poles? With no updates on the state of the overhead wiring upgrades in a while, I suppose this has changed: either future deliveries are going to either ship with poles installed or have them retrofitted when they get to Leslie. Steve M might have confirmed this: https://stevemunro.ca/2017/09/12/pantographs-up-on-harbourfront/ Quote Richard L | September 15, 2017 at 9:02 pm The Wikipedia’s trolley pole page states: The first 60 new Flexity vehicles being delivered to Toronto are using trolley poles as an interim measure while the entire system is being converted to pantograph operation. Vehicles delivered after the initial 60 will be equipped only with pantographs, and will eventually be removed from existing Flexity vehicles as the older CLRVs and ALRVs are retired and the upgrading of the wires is completed. I think the statement is false. I understand the TTC order initially specified that only the first 60 Flexity cars would have pantographs, but that the contract was later modified so that all 204 would have pantographs along with trolley poles. Is my understanding correct? Thanks. Steve: You are correct. The order was changed. The only thing that is later than Bombardier’s deliveries is the TTC’s overhead conversion program. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doppelkupplung Posted January 3, 2018 Report Share Posted January 3, 2018 What are the benefits that accompany the switch from poles to pantos? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelvin3157 Posted January 3, 2018 Report Share Posted January 3, 2018 4 hours ago, MiWay0310 said: What are the benefits that accompany the switch from poles to pantos? Reduces the chances of dewirement Advantages for higher speed increase from the reduced chance of dewirement as it's more stable Not getting off the streetcar and putting the pole back onto the wire from a dewirement 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HB_1024 Posted January 3, 2018 Report Share Posted January 3, 2018 I had read somewhere that pantographs also allow for more current draw in a safer manner than poles (less of a risk for an arc, or something along those lines), but I don't know if that's really true or just fabrication. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dowlingm Posted January 3, 2018 Report Share Posted January 3, 2018 10 hours ago, MiWay0310 said: What are the benefits that accompany the switch from poles to pantos? Also easier to reverse the car, I believe. There are recessed controls at the back of the Flexities. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doppelkupplung Posted January 3, 2018 Report Share Posted January 3, 2018 Awesome, thanks all. I had a feeling there was a benefit from a speed and dewirement standpoint. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allandale25 Posted January 3, 2018 Report Share Posted January 3, 2018 On 1/1/2018 at 11:49 PM, MiWay0310 said: Its just a matter of supply chain issues. If they can fix that up, then everything should flow from there. Here's the video from the local newscast in Thunder Bay last night that complements this story. There are shots inside the BBD plant. - mentions the 65 target that was then lowered to 63; - 59 were actually delivered; - some parts are coming from Romania and Europe, in addition to Mexico; and - the plant aims to produce one streetcar "every three days". 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smallspy Posted January 3, 2018 Report Share Posted January 3, 2018 17 hours ago, Transit geek said: Wasn't 4460 planned to be the last of the cars to be delivered with poles? With no updates on the state of the overhead wiring upgrades in a while, I suppose this has changed: either future deliveries are going to either ship with poles installed or have them retrofitted when they get to Leslie. This hasn't been the case for quite some time. All of the cars will be delivered with both pantographs and trolley poles. Dan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doppelkupplung Posted January 3, 2018 Report Share Posted January 3, 2018 19 minutes ago, Allandale25 said: Here's the video from the local newscast in Thunder Bay last night that complements this story. There are shots inside the BBD plant. - mentions the 65 target that was then lowered to 63; - 59 were actually delivered; - some parts are coming from Romania and Europe, in addition to Mexico; and - the plant aims to produce one streetcar "every three days". They still seem confident about their goal of 204 by 2019 (because that has never budged), so they must be pushing forward in some way or another, especially with the aim to make 1 every 3 days. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smallspy Posted January 3, 2018 Report Share Posted January 3, 2018 There are many advantages to switching to pantographs. There are also many disadvantages as well. Obviously there is an upfront cost to the conversion, as all of the overhead has to be changed or modified. Tangent track needs to have the wire pulled away from centre and staggered, special work needs new fixtures, curves may need new hangers, etc. Ongoing, the maintenance of the overhead is far simpler, as there is less of a concern about wire alignment. Intersections and special work is greatly simplified and removed. The contact wire can be made heavier, and the whole of the overhead can be reconfigured to be more robust. That's not to say that things are necessarily cheaper, however. A pantograph costs multiple, multiple thousands of dollars to replace if it gets damaged - and that's assuming that there is no damage to the overhead or the car itself in the process. A trolley pole costs fractions of that amount, and seldom does it damage anything else if it fails. Speed: that's a non-factor in this case. Yes, a trolley pole has a maximum theoretical speed, but it's around 100mph - a speed which will never be attained here in Toronto. Power draw: the TTC has said that a pantograph can handle more current than a trolley pole, but I have trouble believing that. The new cars are operating just fine with the trolley poles and with all of their systems active. And the TTC used to operate a series of equipment back in the 1920s and 1930s called 6-motor trains where two cars were coupled up - but drew power only from the front pole. Reversing is quite a bit easier, as there is no longer the need for a spotter on the ground to guide the pole. Dan 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doppelkupplung Posted January 3, 2018 Report Share Posted January 3, 2018 What about performance in say, an ice storm? Can the carbon be easily damaged by ice buildup on the wires? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Transit geek Posted January 3, 2018 Report Share Posted January 3, 2018 1 hour ago, smallspy said: This hasn't been the case for quite some time. All of the cars will be delivered with both pantographs and trolley poles. Dan That's good. I do hope that the poles are designed to be removable once the conversion to pans is completed and the pole-supporting infrastructure is removed... if it ever will be. There are arguments for and against removing support for trolley poles. Among them, those who want to see pole support removed would argue that it would reduce the extra maintenance costs caused by a system that supports both pans and poles, especially when virtually all the cars in regular service would use pans. And on the other hand, those wanting to see retention of pole support would argue that if pole support is removed, all the legacy vehicles which are retained for special event purposes would not be able to run.* * Well, at least not without a retrofit to pans...though this image shows that such a retrofit has been done before. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dowlingm Posted January 3, 2018 Report Share Posted January 3, 2018 3 hours ago, MiWay0310 said: What about performance in say, an ice storm? Can the carbon be easily damaged by ice buildup on the wires? Be handy if some future cars had ice cutters maybe? May have to wait for the heavier cable Dan mentioned above though https://maxfaqs.wordpress.com/2012/01/16/of-ice-and-electricity/ 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smallspy Posted January 3, 2018 Report Share Posted January 3, 2018 3 hours ago, MiWay0310 said: What about performance in say, an ice storm? Can the carbon be easily damaged by ice buildup on the wires? Neither one is better than the other, really. The TTC has been running extra cars overnight during heavy storms for years and years to keep the wires clean - going to pantographs won't negate that. 2 hours ago, Transit geek said: That's good. I do hope that the poles are designed to be removable once the conversion to pans is completed and the pole-supporting infrastructure is removed... if it ever will be. There are arguments for and against removing support for trolley poles. Among them, those who want to see pole support removed would argue that it would reduce the extra maintenance costs caused by a system that supports both pans and poles, especially when virtually all the cars in regular service would use pans. And on the other hand, those wanting to see retention of pole support would argue that if pole support is removed, all the legacy vehicles which are retained for special event purposes would not be able to run.* * Well, at least not without a retrofit to pans...though this image shows that such a retrofit has been done before. While it may be a visual distraction, installing pantographs on the historical equipment is certainly not a big deal. The CLRVs were designed for them, and many, many PCCs over the years have been retrofitted with them - and not just in San Diego, either. The Peter Witt would be the only one that concerns me a bit and that's because of its wooden roof, but people smarter than I aren't worried about it, so I won't either. Dan 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ttc rider Posted January 4, 2018 Report Share Posted January 4, 2018 6 hours ago, smallspy said: Neither one is better than the other, really. The TTC has been running extra cars overnight during heavy storms for years and years to keep the wires clean - going to pantographs won't negate that. How about both? Are the Flexities designed to operate by drawing current through both the trolley pole and the pantograph at the same time? This would be advantageous in icy conditions, just like with electric locomotives. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doppelkupplung Posted January 4, 2018 Report Share Posted January 4, 2018 14 minutes ago, ttc rider said: How about both? Are the Flexities designed to operate by drawing current through both the trolley pole and the pantograph at the same time? This would be advantageous in icy conditions, just like with electric locomotives. As Dan said, none is better than the other so I don't see how that would be of any benefit ( I could be wrong there). Unless perhaps, you could stop the pantograph from drawing power from the lines, and use it as an ice breaker for the pole, which would continue to draw power. I've actually never seen an electric locomotive with both pantos up. Both power cars on the Amtrak Acela have their pantos up, but when the AEMs, HHPs were in service, or even the ACSs now, I've never seen both pantos up, if I'm understanding what you mean correctly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ttc rider Posted January 4, 2018 Report Share Posted January 4, 2018 2 hours ago, MiWay0310 said: As Dan said, none is better than the other so I don't see how that would be of any benefit ( I could be wrong there). Unless perhaps, you could stop the pantograph from drawing power from the lines, and use it as an ice breaker for the pole, which would continue to draw power. I've actually never seen an electric locomotive with both pantos up. Both power cars on the Amtrak Acela have their pantos up, but when the AEMs, HHPs were in service, or even the ACSs now, I've never seen both pantos up, if I'm understanding what you mean correctly. If you have two separate means of current collection (for example, two pantographs on an electric loco or one pantograph + one trolley pole on a streetcar), the point of using both at the same time in icy conditions has to do with basic physics. I have explained this here: It is not a matter of using one as an ice breaker and the other as a current collector. The graphite on the trolley shoe and on the slide plate of the pantograph is a soft material - you can't use that for breaking ice. I've read the same theory on Urban Toronto and some other forum, but I don't know where this misconception originated form. Lots of dual-ended electric locomotives normally use two current collectors (that is, both pantographs) in icy conditions and the same can be done on a streetcar, but I don't know if our Flexities allow that capability. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doppelkupplung Posted January 4, 2018 Report Share Posted January 4, 2018 1 hour ago, ttc rider said: If you have two separate means of current collection (for example, two pantographs on an electric loco or one pantograph + one trolley pole on a streetcar), the point of using both at the same time in icy conditions has to do with basic physics. I have explained this here: It is not a matter of using one as an ice breaker and the other as a current collector. The graphite on the trolley shoe and on the slide plate of the pantograph is a soft material - you can't use that for breaking ice. I've read the same theory on Urban Toronto and some other forum, but I don't know where this misconception originated form. Lots of dual-ended electric locomotives normally use two current collectors (that is, both pantographs) in icy conditions and the same can be done on a streetcar, but I don't know if our Flexities allow that capability. Thanks, that was a great explanation; really clears it up. I'm speculating here, but I think in theory they could have that capability. Both the trolley pole and pantograph are mediums that draw power from the wires, and they perform the same task, in essence. I would assume the carbon contact area would be roughly the same for both, thus making the total resistance lower, but increasing total contact w/ the wire. However, I wonder how other cities with single-pantograph trams cope with this issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smallspy Posted January 4, 2018 Report Share Posted January 4, 2018 13 hours ago, ttc rider said: How about both? Are the Flexities designed to operate by drawing current through both the trolley pole and the pantograph at the same time? This would be advantageous in icy conditions, just like with electric locomotives. I don't believe that both can be up at the same time. The circuitry certainly prevents both from receiving power from the overhead, and the pantograph is a "smart" pantograph that should retract in adverse situations. 12 hours ago, MiWay0310 said: I've actually never seen an electric locomotive with both pantos up. Both power cars on the Amtrak Acela have their pantos up, but when the AEMs, HHPs were in service, or even the ACSs now, I've never seen both pantos up, if I'm understanding what you mean correctly. All Amtrak locos since the AEM7s have had a "snow mode" that will raise the forward pantograph as well as the rear one but keep the circuit breakers for it open. It wouldn't surprise me to hear that other railways around the world have a similar function as well. Dan 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WoodbineSecondExit Posted January 4, 2018 Report Share Posted January 4, 2018 Was 4460 unloaded on Tuesday? Will the TTC/City have to decide on the contract option once the FAC is issued for 4460? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mar_AC_23 Posted January 5, 2018 Report Share Posted January 5, 2018 Entered Service: 4458 on route 506 Carlton Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andythagiant Posted January 5, 2018 Report Share Posted January 5, 2018 40 minutes ago, Shemar said: Entered Service: 4458 on route 506 Carlton Every test car signs onto 506 but is not actually in service. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mar_AC_23 Posted January 6, 2018 Report Share Posted January 6, 2018 Entered Service: 4459 on route 504 King Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WoodbineSecondExit Posted January 6, 2018 Report Share Posted January 6, 2018 2017 saw 4431-4459 get delivered. 2017 Flexity Deliveries January February March April May June July August September October November December Total April 2017 Schedule 0 2 1 1 3 2 3 2 4 7 8 7 40 (70) 2017 Actual 2016 2015 2014 0 0 0 - 2 1 1 - 1 1 1 - 2 1 1 - 2 2 0 1 2 1 1 0 1 1 1 1 2 0 1 0 4 1 1 0 4 2 1 0 3 2 1 1 6 3 3 0 29 (59) 15 (30) 12 (15) 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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