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Winnipeg Transit Battery Electric Buses


DavidW
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8 minutes ago, Viafreak said:

994's paint scheme looks different than 995-997, Is that due to its demonstration on other systems?

 

They should also use them on weekends.

Not sure about the paint, but the electric units are stored in Brandon Garage and there's no dispatcher in that garage on weekends and holidays.

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On 9/29/2014 at 1:45 AM, MVTArider said:

Those weather covers look like a good idea. I imagine they will lessen the chances of the charging conduit being encased in ice during a freezing rain. After all they can't exactly send a cutter to clear the ice from the wires like an ETB system can.

Another thought, is this charging system a NFI design and product, or something the local utility or hydro can assemble from standard electrical industry stock? If the BEV movement catches on I imagine sooner or later there will be systems with two different types of bus to charge. So I wonder if each bus model would need it's own special charging station design, or if a standard charging station design will emerge.

 

On 9/29/2014 at 3:34 PM, DavidW said:

An excellent question. There seem to be two general approaches emerging to battery powered buses and charging. One is the the all-day battery. Batteries are recharged overnight and are meant to last the whole service day. I think the BYD units being tried out in Edmonton are this category. I would expect the charging infrastructure is garage-based, and may be as simple as plugging the unit into a wall socket with a cord. (Maybe a 220VAC circuit and a heavy amperage cord...).

This New Flyer product being tried out in Winnipeg has a different cycle, requiring (frequent (hourly?)) recharges during the service period. These batteries are "rapid recharge" (top-up in 10 minutes or less). If you were running multiple routes you would probably need multiple charging stations. Charging infrastructure is route based, and dispersed across the service area.

Is anyone besides New Flyer at the prototype stage of a rapid-recharge batter electric bus? There is a real danger that if multiple suppliers emerge they could have mutually incompatible infrastructure requirements. That might kill the product's future right there, almost regardless of its utility. Becoming captive to a single supplier is rarely a ticket to good financial management.

Common supply infrastructure is what made the Electric Trolley Bus work. After an early experimental phase the industry fairly quickly settled on a relatively standard set of specifications for overhead (ideal wire height, wire spacing, cable diameter, range of supported DC voltages). If transit agencies had to re-wire routes every time they bought new trolley buses I think they would have been much more resistant to adopting the mode in the first place.

I wonder if New Flyer could take a page out of the IT world and "open source" the charging station specifications. Then others could design their own products to fit, and thus expand the market.

From August, but just noticed this press release a few days ago:

New Flyer Second Generation On-Route Charging System Underway in Support of Global Charging Standards

So it is looking like there will eventually be some sort of industry standard for fast charge stations. (and wireless charge, and depot chargers) This will be beneficial to all manufacturers as they no longer need to contend with 'Operator 1 has competitor A's chargers, so us selling them those 3 units in the RFP that specs compatibility is unlikely.'

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As someone who hasn't been to Winnipeg in quite a while, and won't be able to...can anyone summarize for me how Winnipeg Transit is making the battery bus work with its routes without running out of charge? I'm trying to imagine how these buses would work in Vancouver and I'm not sure where the charging stations would be put. On the airport bus (20?) are the charging stations just at termini, or in the middle of the route too?

Thanks!!

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15 minutes ago, Large Cat said:

As someone who hasn't been to Winnipeg in quite a while, and won't be able to...can anyone summarize for me how Winnipeg Transit is making the battery bus work with its routes without running out of charge? I'm trying to imagine how these buses would work in Vancouver and I'm not sure where the charging stations would be put. On the airport bus (20?) are the charging stations just at termini, or in the middle of the route too?

Thanks!!

They just have a charger at the airport

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On 12/14/2016 at 0:41 PM, doug_oak said:

So the range between charges is quite impressive. Route 20 Watt-Academy is a crosstown route, operating through downtown. Not sure about the round trip mileage, but the running time in the am peak is approximately 2 hr 10 mins.

 

Very cool--glad to see the bus is working so well! Can't wait to see 'em in Vancouver. :)

I guess my other question is, how does the charging relate to recovery time, if the bus is late?  Are 20 runs just given super long recovery times so that they can fully charge and still leave on time? To really be safe, it seems like you'd need ordinary recovery time PLUS 10 minutes of charging time, since the necessity to charge prevents any turning and burning. I can see this being great for operators (a guaranteed break!), but having more 15 or 20 minutes of recovery time on every 2-hour run seems kind of unrealistic, at least taking how things are done in Vancouver as my reference point. That recovery time can cost the company a lot of money when built into the schedule (which isn't to say I'm against it!).

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6 hours ago, Large Cat said:

I guess my other question is, how does the charging relate to recovery time, if the bus is late?  Are 20 runs just given super long recovery times so that they can fully charge and still leave on time? To really be safe, it seems like you'd need ordinary recovery time PLUS 10 minutes of charging time, since the necessity to charge prevents any turning and burning. I can see this being great for operators (a guaranteed break!), but having more 15 or 20 minutes of recovery time on every 2-hour run seems kind of unrealistic, at least taking how things are done in Vancouver as my reference point. That recovery time can cost the company a lot of money when built into the schedule (which isn't to say I'm against it!).

It appears that you are correct about the recovery time at the Airport end of the route.  Based on the public timetable for Monday to Friday service, there is 21 minutes of recovery time there.   IIRC the charging time is approx. 10 minutes.  I also looked at a Saturday run but there was only 13 minutes of time there.  Question for the locals - does that mean that the XE40s are currently not being scheduled on the weekends?

I agree that these dwell costs could be significant for an operation with a large number of electric buses, although there would also be a large offset from fuel costs.  If the technology would support a reduction in charging time in the future, that would also make a difference.

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1 hour ago, doug_oak said:

It appears that you are correct about the recovery time at the Airport end of the route.  Based on the public timetable for Monday to Friday service, there is 21 minutes of recovery time there.   IIRC the charging time is approx. 10 minutes.  I also looked at a Saturday run but there was only 13 minutes of time there.  Question for the locals - does that mean that the XE40s are currently not being scheduled on the weekends?

I agree that these dwell costs could be significant for an operation with a large number of electric buses, although there would also be a large offset from fuel costs.  If the technology would support a reduction in charging time in the future, that would also make a difference.

Yes they are only used Monday to Friday 6am-7:30pm. 

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9 hours ago, doug_oak said:

It appears that you are correct about the recovery time at the Airport end of the route.  Based on the public timetable for Monday to Friday service, there is 21 minutes of recovery time there.   IIRC the charging time is approx. 10 minutes.  I also looked at a Saturday run but there was only 13 minutes of time there.  Question for the locals - does that mean that the XE40s are currently not being scheduled on the weekends?

I agree that these dwell costs could be significant for an operation with a large number of electric buses, although there would also be a large offset from fuel costs.  If the technology would support a reduction in charging time in the future, that would also make a difference.

Thanks so much for the info! Very interesting. Maybe it wouldn't be a bad thing to use some of the fuel savings to buy minutes for operator breaks anyways! :D

 

I'd love to hear more about how the XE40's are doing in Winnipeg, so I'll be checking back.

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On 2016-12-19 at 7:14 AM, doug_oak said:

It appears that you are correct about the recovery time at the Airport end of the route.  Based on the public timetable for Monday to Friday service, there is 21 minutes of recovery time there.   IIRC the charging time is approx. 10 minutes.  I also looked at a Saturday run but there was only 13 minutes of time there.  Question for the locals - does that mean that the XE40s are currently not being scheduled on the weekends?

I agree that these dwell costs could be significant for an operation with a large number of electric buses, although there would also be a large offset from fuel costs.  If the technology would support a reduction in charging time in the future, that would also make a difference.

I have heard of some agencies with larger fleets of electric buses actually having drivers "step forward". They would pull their bus into the terminal, plug their bus in, and take a charged bus out for the next trip. By the time the next driver arrives, that previous bus is now charged and ready to go.

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13 hours ago, Articulated said:

I have heard of some agencies with larger fleets of electric buses actually having drivers "step forward". They would pull their bus into the terminal, plug their bus in, and take a charged bus out for the next trip. By the time the next driver arrives, that previous bus is now charged and ready to go.

I have never heard of that practice anywhere. Do you remember what agency or agencies?

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