Surrey Rapid Transit / Surrey Light rail

[Blue Bus Fan]

TransLink is looking to bring rapid Transit to Surrey on King George Boulevard, 104th Avenue and Fraser highway. I'm wondering what of the four options will be the best for Surrey:

1. Bus Rapid Transit on King George Boulevard, 104th Avenue and Fraser highway.

2. Light rail transit on Fraser highway, and Bus Rapid Transit King George Boulevard, 104th Avenue.

3. Light rail transit on King George Boulevard, 104th Avenue and Fraser highway.

4. Rapid rail transit (SkyTrain) above Fraser highway, and Bus Rapid Transit on King George Boulevard, 104th Avenue.

Fraser highway line will go from Surrey Central Station or King George Station to Langley Centre.

King Geogre Boulevard line will go from Surrey Central Station to White rock.

http://www.translink.ca/en/Plans-and-Projects/Rapid-Transit-Projects/Surrey-Rapid-Transit-Study.aspx

[Blue Bus Fan]

4. Rapid rail transit (SkyTrain) above Fraser highway, and Bus Rapid Transit on King George Boulevard, 104th Avenue.

I am going with this option because it increase transit by 2041. The other reason is it would help bring the Expo line close to Abbotsford which BC Transit can operate bus routes to the line which will take cars off the road.

[Express691]

LRT would cause problems. Too crowded, unless we find a way to ban trucks from 104th. Also, we may have a hard time finding a facility to store all the trains.

[Ehlun]

BRT is the perfect stop-gap solution for Surrey and will provide the most frequent and best coverage.

[Blue Bus Fan]

LRT would cause problems. Too crowded. , unless we find a way to ban trucks from 104th. Also, we might have a hard time finding a facility to keep all the trains in.

I agree about the light rail transit be crowded. I think the new rules would come with light rail on 104th.

BRT is the perfect stop-gap solution for Surrey and will provide the most frequent and best coverage.

I think Bus Rapid Transit would be good for 104th and King George Boulevard. I think the Expo line will be extended to Langley Centre!

[nname]

The worst thing about LRT plan is that it add more transfers to just about any trips involved. For the KGB/104th BRT, they elminate transfers to/from Coquitlam and Walnut Grove; for the RRT option, it elminate transfer between Fleetwood/Langley and New Westminster. For LRT, it doesn't eliminate anything but add a new transfer point at Newton for BRT->LRT. If anyone regularly commuting from outer suburbs like Tri-Cities, South Surrey, and rural Langley, you'll find out that the transfer is the absolute worst part of the commute as it add so much time. For the Tri-Cities, that transfer point at Coquitlam Station and/or PoCo Station basically make any regional trip more than an hour long even if both routes are part of the "frequent transit network"!

So rating each of the options base on transfer points:

1. BRT -> -2

2. BRT+LRT -> -2

3. LRT -> +1

4. RRT -> -3

The LRT plan cost about the same as RRT, but for all trip, its just a mere switch from bus to train for part of the trip. The LRT might save a few minutes enroute, but everything else is pretty much the same, including the hassle of waiting, walking, and transfering (note: LRT would have the longest headway of all rapid transit modes - so that's an increase of waiting time). Now just imagine a trip from outer part of South Surrey to New Westminster

Current: Local Bus/Shuttle -> Regional Bus -> SkyTrain = 2 transfers

With LRT: Local Bus/Shuttle -> BRT -> LRT -> SkyTrain = 3 transfers!

Does the LRT even look attractive in this case?

[Millennium2002]

I can tell Surrey's becoming impatient at upper-level government inaction... lol.

Having said that, I'm not too fond of the idea of having a Fraser Highway LRT share road space with cars in the Green Timbers area... not to mention, the SkyTrain line pretty much already points that way. Given that (and other concerns), I'm actually worried that Surrey might be rushing too fast on this... and one has to remember that once something's built, it stays there for a long time (usually).

If there's a key section that could get uprated right now without a commotion, though, it would probably be the 96 B-Line.

[Express691]

Sorry for the bump, but here's what's been happening lately.

Kevin Desmond was recently hired as Translink's new CEO. Sources have said that he's pro-LRT. After all, he helped pushed for the Link Light Rail when he worked in Seattle.

[Blue Bus Fan]

I think this would be the best thread for this. I read an article in the Surrey news leader that LRT for Surrey is gaining momentum. It mentioned Linda Hepner is going strong with keeping the election promise for LRT and the fact that the federal Liberals have all but one seat in Surrey and are supporting the project. The article mentions that construction should be started by 2018 (happens to be election time) on the first phase which is what the 96 is currently. Another contributing factor, which I didn't notice in the article, is that Translink's new CEO had a part in bringing Seattle's LRT to life which could bring even more momentum to Surrey's LRT.

I think a better option would be BRT with dedicated bus lanes and signal priority throughout the entire route which would be even cheaper than LRT and the timing is the same as the 96. There is also a question as to who might operate the LRT. The work basically belongs to CMBC so it could be that CMBC may operate the line similar to Edmonton and Calgary operates. The operates work both buses and LRT. Other options are BCRTC or a third party which would be the worst option in my opinion.

Maybe time for this topic to have its own thread?

Sent from my SM-T700 using Tapatalk

Does the province have the final say on rapid transit technology in Metro Vancouver?

[Brando737]

Didn't dig deep enough to find this post, my bad.

I don't know who has the final say, but I do know the federal Liberals are wanting to support the project and I think it may have been an election promise. I think it was a topic when Justin Treadue was in town talking to the mayor's. They are wanting to support the Broadway extension as well.

Sent from my SM-T700 using Tapatalk

[8800GTX]

^ I don't think we can really conclude that at this point. Firstly it's too early to do that - we hardly know anything about his character. Secondly, it's important to remember that the whole "SkyTrain vs LRT" debate we have here in the Metro is essentially non-existent in other cities. Outsiders don't necessarily know about the concepts and advantages of the driver-less rapid transit that we have here; in other places it ends up being a battle between the conventional options (i.e. subway, LRT, bus) - and with subway often excluded off the bat, that leaves just LRT and... well... non-LRT. As such I don't think Desmond being in charge is going to change anything. If he's going to be supportive of Surrey's LRT, that's probably because TransLink as a whole is already supportive (they did help Surrey with the P3 Canada application after all). At the same time, if he's any concerned about practicalities (TransLink's own study concluded that LRT was definitely not the favourable solution) then there could still be a switch in favour of the SkyTrain + BRT option and he might just be the one to mandate it. We'll find out in time.

Seattle's Link has the at-grade, on-street section on MLK way, but the majority of the system is built with (and continues to be built with) grade-separation - as if they learned from their mistake with Central Link. You guys should check out the concept videos they have for the future system extensions - it's all viaducts, viaducts and viaducts. I'm sure Desmond realizes that extending SkyTrain is a better buy, because the Link LRT's compromise of an at-grade design helped result in its paltry ridership numbers compared to what we have on our system here. Desmond's ridden our SkyTrain (there was a pic on TransLink's IG) - he's seen how many people have used it and what kind of communities we built around it here. I'm sure he's warming up to the driverless rapid transit concept as we speak.

@Brando737 - That article was probably the column (opinion) piece by Frank Bucholtz, not an actual news piece. If anything I would say LRT is having horrible momentum - because both the pro-LRT organization (Light Rail Links) and the City of Surrey have been engaging in a huge LRT push over this past week (there've been several news releases, and a new video if you check Surrey's YouTube), none of which have actually been given much notice by media and the general public. The Mayor's breakfast thing Hepner did yesterday was supposed to be focused on LRT - but it was the gas tax announcement that stole all the attention, with the words "LRT" or "Light Rail" basically omitted from news headlines (included in the article, but not the main part of the piece).

There's been some momentum for Surrey's video on Facebook, but you can tell that's pretty much a result of ad money they're putting to get it on people's news feeds. By comparison I also started putting ad money into a video on my opposition campaign's FB page for the first time, and it's gotten twice as far with several times as many views, likes and shares - and that's with both paid and significant organic reach.

[Blue Bus Fan]

I personally think that Expo line should be extended to Langley Centre because it would help get more people on transit and BRT that can get convert to light rail on King George Boulevard and 104th Avenue because it would only effect Surrey and White rock commuters.

[SidneyTransitfan]

I personally think that Expo line should be extended to Langley Centre because it would help get more people on transit

No, it wouldn't. Langley is urban sprawl-central, until high-rises start going up out there (25 years from now perhaps) Skytrain will go nowhere near Langley Township.

The only reason Coquitlam is getting the Evergreen Line extension is because it is a centrally-located hub with some decent high-density development nearby. Coquitlam Central already has local buses and also West Coast Express, both already feed into one-another and will also feed the Evergreen Line.

Langley has a handful of local bus services (milk-runs mostly) and the highest building is three-stories tall. If an extension of the Expo line were to be granted in the future, the most suitable destination would actually be Guildford Mall. Right now it too is urban sprawl, but its' proximity to the TCH and recent housing developments would make it an ideal place for a transit park and ride, should Carvolth become overused in the future.

[Blue Bus Fan]

No, it wouldn't. Langley is urban sprawl-central, until high-rises start going up out there (25 years from now perhaps) Skytrain will go nowhere near Langley Township.

The only reason Coquitlam is getting the Evergreen Line extension is because it is a centrally-located hub with some decent high-density development nearby. Coquitlam Central already has local buses and also West Coast Express, both already feed into one-another and will also feed the Evergreen Line.

Langley has a handful of local bus services (milk-runs mostly) and the highest building is three-stories tall. If an extension of the Expo line were to be granted in the future, the most suitable destination would actually be Guildford Mall. Right now it too is urban sprawl, but its' proximity to the TCH and recent housing developments would make it an ideal place for a transit park and ride, should Carvolth become overused in the future.

Look at Metro Vancouver before SkyTrain was put in place total sprawl out and SkyTrain has made even city that has more urban centre. So, Langley and Surrey would become more urban when SkyTrain gets extended out Langley. Guildford Mall makes no sense for SkyTrain because King Goegre Station to Surrey Central Station portion will need to be re- engineer.

[buizelbus]

On 2/15/2016 at 6:26 PM, Blue Bus Fan said:

On 2/15/2016 at 5:34 PM, SidneyTransitfan said:

No, it wouldn't. Langley is urban sprawl-central, until high-rises start going up out there (25 years from now perhaps) Skytrain will go nowhere near Langley Township.

The only reason Coquitlam is getting the Evergreen Line extension is because it is a centrally-located hub with some decent high-density development nearby. Coquitlam Central already has local buses and also West Coast Express, both already feed into one-another and will also feed the Evergreen Line.

Langley has a handful of local bus services (milk-runs mostly) and the highest building is three-stories tall. If an extension of the Expo line were to be granted in the future, the most suitable destination would actually be Guildford Mall. Right now it too is urban sprawl, but its' proximity to the TCH and recent housing developments would make it an ideal place for a transit park and ride, should Carvolth become overused in the future.

Look at Metro Vancouver before SkyTrain was put in place total sprawl out and SkyTrain has made even city that has more urban centre. So, Langley and Surrey would become more urban when SkyTrain gets extended out Langley. Guildford Mall makes no sense for SkyTrain because King Goegre Station to Surrey Central Station portion will need to be re- engineer.

Sorry for bringing this post back to life- I was going to make one but stopped after I saw there already was one.

 

I personally agree with the SkyTrain argument, I just don't understand how your going to fit BRT on 104 Ave. Buses take up more space than LRVs (from what I heard) so how are you going to fit BRT if you can't fit LRT? I am sure @8800GTX could answer this though.

[Blue Bus Fan]

5 minutes ago, cprted said:

Public consultations on the Broadway extension of the M Line and Surrey LRT projects coming up this month.

Surrey LRT

This is a better spot for this. 

 

I feel like LRT is going to be tremendous failure due it not getting the ridership and loosing ridership due the delays with the traffic and crashes. Hope the Provincial Government does what they historical done and change it to SkyTrain because it is a better use of taxpayer money.

[cleowin]

I dont mind if its LRT for L-Line and RRT for the langley line, just it makes no economical sense to have lrt to langley when you can just stay on skytrain to langley.

[Blue Bus Fan]

1 minute ago, cleowin said:

I dont mind if its LRT for L-Line and RRT for the langley line, just it makes no economical sense to have lrt to langley when you can just stay on skytrain to langley.

I agree because it would be win-win for all residents of Surrey and Langleys because the Langleys will be connected to rest region via the Expo Line and Surrey still gets some sort of rail transit. I think Guildford wouldn't get serviced by SkyTrain because it will be hard to connect to the rest of system with out rebuilding Surrey Central to Gateway portion of Expo line.

[cleowin]

Also, skytrain to guildford would be a dead end, not sure where you'd extend from there

[nname]

I still think BRT would be a better option for the L line, so rapid transit can be extended to Carvolth by extending some trips using the HOV lane at pretty much no cost (beside the buses). Also, buses from White Rock, Fraser Heights, Port Kells, etc can run straight into the bus lane at Newton/Guildford into Surrey Central. Otherwise, it will be one transfer to the LRT and Newton/Guildford, then second transfer to SkyTrain at Surrey Central.

With the opening of Evergreen Line, many in the Tri-Cities area are very happy for the end of the extra transfer for 97/169. Surrey, on the other hand, want to add a transfer, permanently.

[Orcair]

9 hours ago, nname said:

I still think BRT would be a better option for the L line, so rapid transit can be extended to Carvolth by extending some trips using the HOV lane at pretty much no cost (beside the buses). Also, buses from White Rock, Fraser Heights, Port Kells, etc can run straight into the bus lane at Newton/Guildford into Surrey Central. Otherwise, it will be one transfer to the LRT and Newton/Guildford, then second transfer to SkyTrain at Surrey Central.

Exactly. As someone who takes the bus from S Surrey/White Rock, I'm not going to connect onto LRT which causes me to potentially stand around waiting for an extra 5-15 minute, if I have a regular bus that takes me the full route, without having to connect. I mean I don't love the 321 but I'm not willing to connect onto the 96 for the last few stops because the busses are newer - LRT isn't gonna change that. 

For the Langley line, I think Surrey is completely misunderstanding consumer preference. Skytrain is much more desirable for people who otherwise won't be incentivized to take transit - my parents wouldn't take a bus, but are fine with SkyTrain. It's all about incentivizing people, which I don't think LRT does enough of (over a bus). 

[Blue Bus Fan]

Last night I change the name of this thread to better reflect the project.

[cleowin]

9 hours ago, Orcair said:

Exactly. As someone who takes the bus from S Surrey/White Rock, I'm not going to connect onto LRT which causes me to potentially stand around waiting for an extra 5-15 minute, if I have a regular bus that takes me the full route, without having to connect. I mean I don't love the 321 but I'm not willing to connect onto the 96 for the last few stops because the busses are newer - LRT isn't gonna change that. 

For the Langley line, I think Surrey is completely misunderstanding consumer preference. Skytrain is much more desirable for people who otherwise won't be incentivized to take transit - my parents wouldn't take a bus, but are fine with SkyTrain. It's all about incentivizing people, which I don't think LRT does enough of (over a bus). 

Then you got people like me who prefers a bus over a skytrain because i love the bus

with that being said, if lrt is announced for phase 2, im gunna run for surrey mayor and veto the project and encourage RRT instead because anything short of RRT is not acceptable for fraser hwy.

9 hours ago, Orcair said:

Exactly. As someone who takes the bus from S Surrey/White Rock, I'm not going to connect onto LRT which causes me to potentially stand around waiting for an extra 5-15 minute, if I have a regular bus that takes me the full route, without having to connect. I mean I don't love the 321 but I'm not willing to connect onto the 96 for the last few stops because the busses are newer - LRT isn't gonna change that. 

For the Langley line, I think Surrey is completely misunderstanding consumer preference. Skytrain is much more desirable for people who otherwise won't be incentivized to take transit - my parents wouldn't take a bus, but are fine with SkyTrain. It's all about incentivizing people, which I don't think LRT does enough of (over a bus). 

Then you got people like me who prefers a bus over a skytrain because i love the bus

[Orcair]

11 minutes ago, cleowin said:

Then you got people like me who prefers a bus over a skytrain because i love the bus

with that being said, if lrt is announced for phase 2, im gunna run for surrey mayor and veto the project and encourage RRT instead because anything short of RRT is not acceptable for fraser hwy.

I mean I love the bus more than a normal/sane person but I was trying to make sure my argument had enough sanity for the regular public ! 

Re: Hepner, I'd vote for you! These 4 years have been abysmal for Surrey. 

[dover5949]

What really needs to be done is add another West Coast Express Train that would originate out in Chilliwack using the SRY Rail tracks just like how the Fraser Valley Interurban line ran. After crossing Fraser River Rail Bridge there would be 2 options. Line "A" would continue through downtown New West then through the south part of Burnaby below Marine Way on the CP New Westminster spur line that would end at Marpole Loop. Line "B" would route by way of the CN Yale Sub by Braid Skytrain then eventually through the Grandview Cut then through Strathcona before terminating at Waterfront Station. Or over all it could run from Chilliwack to Scott Road Station. The only bit of rail traffic congestion would be is at Fraser River Bridge in New West. Obviously the track would need upgrading & new equipment purchased but I think the cost would be much lower then building another Skytrain extension?