General Route Discussion and History

[armorand]

Surprised to see nearly-completely empty artics heading back to Downtown at 3pm on a weekday... for the Bowness situation mentioned elsewhere in the Calgary threads, I'd totally agree - these D60LFR's with a whole six passengers on it... they could be used to short-turn in Downtown and take off some steam, while replacing those with 40 footers & maybe reducing the bus bunching significantly. Noticed alot of Winnipeg-esque bus bunching in Forest Lawn, today.

Other thing I've noticed though:

- no wifi at the stations?

- minimalist design of stations. Winnipegs SWRTC might have Osborne as a jewel, but the rest of the ones back home are underwhelming. Calgary managed to save money and make it look exponentially more appealing in terms of the stations/transitway itself, and pending some slight changes like wifi or not bunching alot of empty artics together... i could see the ridership dramatically expand.

- people using emergency exits as shortcuts

- the Ronald McDonald public art at the station with the D60 parked outside of it... why...

 

Other than that, no complaints. Except for maybe building a transit-only road or dedicating rights of way in Inglewood for faster travel? Or maybe direct bus connections from Max Bell/Franklin, directly to the Max Purple line, with high frequencies on those new bus routes to encourage less crowding on the NE train, less transfers needed in Downtown, and speeding up travel time from the NE to Forest Lawn/Dover/employment centres, significantly?

[downbeat]

37 minutes ago, armorand said:

Surprised to see nearly-completely empty artics heading back to Downtown at 3pm on a weekday... for the Bowness situation mentioned elsewhere in the Calgary threads, I'd totally agree - these D60LFR's with a whole six passengers on it... they could be used to short-turn in Downtown and take off some steam, while replacing those with 40 footers & maybe reducing the bus bunching significantly. Noticed alot of Winnipeg-esque bus bunching in Forest Lawn, today.

I’ve been thinking a lot about this, too. My pie-in-the-sky idea to fix this situation:

• Run Route 1 Bowness to City Centre only. Under the current weekday midday schedule, I’d guess Transit would only need six buses for a 15 minute headway, freeing up five vehicles for use elsewhere.
• Keep MAX Purple as it is.
• Keep Route 411 (soon to be slightly-modified Route 101) as an Inglewood local but protect with two buses (instead of just one) to allow a 20ish minute headway. 
• Extend Route 67 south of Penbrooke Terminal to replace the easternmost segment of Route 1. Three buses for 20ish minute headway, two buses for 30ish minute headway. 
• (Alternatively) Introduce new bus service from Max Bell or Franklin to Penbrooke Terminal via the curb lanes on 17 Ave S.E., as @armorand  suggested. Such a route would be approximately the same length as Route 87 (just eyeballing here) so I estimate Transit would need two buses for a 30 minute headway, three buses for 20 minute headway. 

[armorand]

19 hours ago, downbeat said:

I’ve been thinking a lot about this, too. My pie-in-the-sky idea to fix this situation:

I don't go into Forest Lawn very often (I'm mostly SW), but my friend in Penbrooke takes the bus to/from Chinook for work. After they changed the 23/72/73 into the modified 23 and 43, he's now lost bus service to work and it takes way longer now for him to get to Chinook, and what would've been his bus trip home on the 73, no longer exists...

What I was thinking:

- Run Route 1 from Bowness to Inglewood, but short-turn the bus in Inglewood. It might require the extra bus, but considering how packed Inglewood can get, plus potential issues of packed buses bypassing Inglewood entirely, having it still serve Inglewood would keep the service in place, and maybe reduce congestion as well. MP could handle the rest from that point, and fill up those artics.

- MP: increase frequency to every 7 minutes weekdays (taking up current MP, AND R1 passenger loads), but otherwise, keep as-is. Make it actual BRT.

- Alternatively (against Calgary Transits belief system that branch routes would be a nightmare that no transit rider could somehow comprehend

MP branched off into two separate branches: one branch that goes all the way to East Hills, the other that takes up the current Route 1 Penbrooke section.

Divide frequencies, every second bus on MP going to Penbrooke. Mid-day and rush hour, this would be every 15-20 minutes, and also help to take off LRT loads of passengers, if not generate more ridership by having basically a faster Route 1. With NE LRT expansion and potentially the Airport in the mix in the future (not to mention Airdrie Transit connections with the train in years to come), the trains will fill up substantially, and giving the MP a Penbrooke branch would help alleviate potential crowding at Marlborough and Franklin stations, when people try to get onboard the train during rush hour. It will also encourage more transit use in the long run.

Also, by having this set-up as a branched BRT line, think about this too: one branch taking the Penbrooke section. One taking East Hills. Reduced frequency on branches. Same frequency on MP otherwise. Penbrooke would generate passengers and ridership significantly, with a direct tie-in with the rest of the line, boosting ridership. East Hills still gets serviced, just a longer wait time, which also helps boost ridership and ensures a certain amount of passengers per hour, for revenue/breakeven costs. Full buses. Full service utilization. Only after maybe 10pm at night, would those buses even begin to look empty haha. 

It would be a great all-in-one solution! Plus it also wouldn't affect the feeders much either, if anything, it'll boost ridership on them as well. 

As for new bus service between Max Bell/Franklin/Marlborough to MP/Forest Lawn, totally agree. One looping bus route, counter-clockwise: Franklin, Father Lacombe, Forest Lawn, Marlborough (Mall). Train station, massive ridership generator, MP/Forest Lawn, and then train again (with two malls and multiple stores/employment nearby). Would work wonders!

See attachment and link for example of branch routing: https://winnipegtransit.com/en/routes/22 or https://winnipegtransit.com/en/routes/59

22V5.pdf

[downbeat]

Great suggestions, too!

By the way, when I wrote "Keep MAX Purple as it is", I was talking strictly about routing, not frequency. Clearly, its frequency would need to be bumped up slightly without the Route 1 branch. (Or is Route 1 currently the trunk?)

[Transit Fan]

Hah, you guys are totally bringing up some ideas I've had since they first proposed the network change last year.

Route 1 from Bowness to Inglewood. 411 would be discontinued. Although i'm not sure a big bus would work east of 19 St.

For Penbrooke, I was thinking either do a branch system, every other bus goes to Penbrooke or East Hills. Or have either a similar route to 440 to Penbrooke from Franklin. Or better yet, change the underused 155 route to service Penbrooke as a feeder route to the MP. The branch idea would be best though. The travel time between the two branches (52nd St to Penbrooke and East Hills) would be pretty similar so scheduling would be relatively simple.

[armorand]

17 hours ago, Transit Fan said:

Hah, you guys are totally bringing up some ideas I've had since they first proposed the network change last year.

Route 1 from Bowness to Inglewood. 411 would be discontinued. Although i'm not sure a big bus would work east of 19 St.

For Penbrooke, I was thinking either do a branch system, every other bus goes to Penbrooke or East Hills. Or have either a similar route to 440 to Penbrooke from Franklin. Or better yet, change the underused 155 route to service Penbrooke as a feeder route to the MP. The branch idea would be best though. The travel time between the two branches (52nd St to Penbrooke and East Hills) would be pretty similar so scheduling would be relatively simple.

The only problem - Calgary Transit doesnt believe in branch routing.

Honestly if they actually did have branch routing across the city, it would be WAY less of a headache for whoever coughs up the routes... just think of what could be accomplished!

- MP branched

- 302 branched (one to South Health Campus, the other to Cranston)

- Route 81 branched to Southcentre (already planned) and EP Scarlett

Just a small set of examples, but same with CTrain routing too: route one branch to the Airport and another to Airdrie, if not one big giant LRT loop... they could sit there picking at every single route until theres 1001 bus routes - or - they could just branch it off, keep core frequency, serve more new areas, and also maybe boost ridership in the process. 

Example: lets say I take the 14 to Somerset and then a train downtown, and then another bus into the industrial areas in Ogden. But one day, 302 gets branched to Cranston. Then suddenly, I'm taking the 302 because its faster, I'll actually be able to have a single seat (versus the sardines treatment), no-transfer-needed ride from Cranston to Ogden. Boosts ridership in Cranston. Boosts SE transit use. Acts as a stepping stone to the Green Line too... 

There are definitely some serious benefits of having branched transit routes, versus one transit route for SPECIFICALLY one direction of travel.

Route 305 with COP and short-turn Bowness branches, for instance. For every one bus to COP, run 1-2 to Bowness and relieve the overcrowding. Have the 1 treated as a regular route, and 305 as the BRT express to relieve overcrowding. But from downtown, it would still be the same frequency. Bowness, I'm sure they would appreciate ANY frequency of 305 at this point, but does COP need that level of BRT service though? Slapping a 40 footer into a COP - 1/305 transfer point (if not a COP to Westbrook shuttle) would probably suffice

[downbeat]

Speaking of Route 1 ... yikes!

 

 

[armorand]

Crowchild construction, right?

[downbeat]

7 minutes ago, armorand said:

Crowchild construction, right?

The only official detour was due to roadwork in Bowness. The Crowchild ramp closure should not have had a direct impact on Kensington Road. (The closest official detour was via Memorial.)

Can’t think of anything else … unless there were unannounced road blockages due to Neighbour Day events?

[Transit Fan]

One more good reason for splitting the route. Major congestion in the west end completely kills the schedule adherence for the route and nullifies the reliability of having dedicated lanes in the east end.

Unless the congestion is on 9th Ave, 6th Ave or 3rd St SE, you'll often notice MP is on time while Route 1 is suffering significant delays. 5th Ave eastbound is often a big bottleneck during pm rush hour.

[armorand]

9 hours ago, Transit Fan said:

One more good reason for splitting the route. Major congestion in the west end completely kills the schedule adherence for the route and nullifies the reliability of having dedicated lanes in the east end.

Unless the congestion is on 9th Ave, 6th Ave or 3rd St SE, you'll often notice MP is on time while Route 1 is suffering significant delays. 5th Ave eastbound is often a big bottleneck during pm rush hour.

Hm... whats the possibility of having a Transitway between Bowness, Foothills and Downtown? I know theres been talk of some sort of aerial lift in the past, but from Bowness to Downtown (included Foothills as a destination in between), whats the possibility of building a transit right-of-way directly from Downtown to Bowness? And if the transitway could also encompass Foothills, or just a direct route to Bowness/COP only?

[Transit Fan]

15 hours ago, armorand said:

Hm... whats the possibility of having a Transitway between Bowness, Foothills and Downtown? I know theres been talk of some sort of aerial lift in the past, but from Bowness to Downtown (included Foothills as a destination in between), whats the possibility of building a transit right-of-way directly from Downtown to Bowness? And if the transitway could also encompass Foothills, or just a direct route to Bowness/COP only?

I doubt we'll ever see a dedicated transitway for Bowness. There's not enough space for most of that area to expand the roadway. The alternative is to tear up the riverfront and the bow river pathway which I don't think would be worth it at all.

I do suspect we'll see the 305 transformed into an in-street MAX route at some point in the future (similar to the Orange and Teal). MAX style platforms with queue jumps at some of the major bottleneck intersections. I was thinking it could take an alternate route where it goes north on 29th St to Foothills, west on 16th Ave back to Bowness Road (and vice versa going eastbound). A section of Parkdale loses out on the service along Bowness Road but this provides connections to the hospital and the MAX Orange.

[downbeat]

1 hour ago, Transit Fan said:

I doubt we'll ever see a dedicated transitway for Bowness. There's not enough space for most of that area to expand the roadway. The alternative is to tear up the riverfront and the bow river pathway which I don't think would be worth it at all.

Not only that, but IMHO the road network and geography make it difficult to feed services into Routes 305 and 1, unlike the transitway on 17th Ave. S.E.

All services in Tuscany go to the Red Line. Silver Springs and Scenic Acres have betters services toward the CTrain than in the other direction (Route 40 connects with 1 and 305 but that bus comes only every 35 minutes).

Everything south of WinSport feeds into Blue Line.

Etc. 

[Blake M]

15 minutes ago, downbeat said:

Not only that, but IMHO the road network and geography make it difficult to feed services into Routes 305 and 1, unlike the transitway on 17th Ave. S.E.

All services in Tuscany go to the Red Line. Silver Springs and Scenic Acres have betters services toward the CTrain than in the other direction (Route 40 connects with 1 and 305 but that bus comes only every 35 minutes).

Everything south of WinSport feeds into Blue Line.

Etc. 

You COULD have buses for Crestmont Valley Ridge and the new Trinity Hills development feed into it but other than that you're completely right. Also I believe the 305 should be using Bow Trail to Crowchild Trail to leave downtown (or 14 Street to Memorial Drive) and Crowchild/Bow to enter downtown. I feel like that could also be a time saver

[downbeat]

Stumbled upon this old PDF from Calgary Transit in 2010, which explains planned service changes to Calgary International Airport.

https://www.calgarytransit.com/sites/default/files/reports/proposed_transit_service_plan_for_yyc.pdf

[Nick B]

Airport tram, high speed rail, North Central LRT via Nose Creek, transit superhub at 96 Ave.......yeah, dream on.

But let's at least appreciate how beautiful #8073 looked back then 

[yvarushin]

Thank god the “310” was implemented.

[armorand]

On 6/19/2019 at 11:10 PM, Nick B said:

Airport tram, high speed rail, North Central LRT via Nose Creek, transit superhub at 96 Ave.......yeah, dream on.

No hoverbuses? Gondola service down the river? Rickshaws down Deerfoot? 

Got to admit though, Calgary at least had these on the drawing board and did take a somewhat-serious look at it - Winnipeg couldn't even get BRT right, nevermind "trams" or anything of high speed... you know, MILES per hour... 

[downbeat]

A bad day for Routes 1, MP and 411 today … possible something going on the east leg or in downtown today disrupting service across the lines?

  

[downbeat]

Ah, an explanation.

 

 

[Gsgeek540]

3 hours ago, downbeat said:

A bad day for Routes 1, MP and 411 today … possible something going on the east leg or in downtown today disrupting service across the lines?

Combination of Indigenous Day celebrations at Fort Calgary (For all 3 routes) and construction on Parkdale Blvd (For route 1)

[Blake M]

Im just curious to hear thoughts on this, and I'm going to use the route 96 as an example. Why does transit put in layovers partway through the route? As well, why are there random buses in random places that do not make sense? Why do some runs stop at a random timepoint while others continue on to fully complete the route? The photo attached is the summer schedule for the 96. My main issues, especially during a time where they're trying to trim fat, is that the 7am trip from Anderson makes no sense, the 16:00 trip from McKenzie makes no sense. Between 18:15 and 18:50 there are three departures from Anderson, when the bus runs consistently every 30-50 minutes all day. The 18:15 and 18:35 trips end at the Shell gas station on McKenzie Lake Blvd (south end) yet the 23:45 and 00:19 trips continue to the north end near the Esso gas station. In addition to all this, after leaving Anderson, the bus has three different short layovers before returning to Anderson. This all makes for an inconsistent and ridiculous schedule. So again I ask, why??? 

[armorand]

11 hours ago, Blake M said:

Im just curious to hear thoughts on this, and I'm going to use the route 96 as an example. Why does transit put in layovers partway through the route? As well, why are there random buses in random places that do not make sense? Why do some runs stop at a random timepoint while others continue on to fully complete the route? The photo attached is the summer schedule for the 96. My main issues, especially during a time where they're trying to trim fat, is that the 7am trip from Anderson makes no sense, the 16:00 trip from McKenzie makes no sense. Between 18:15 and 18:50 there are three departures from Anderson, when the bus runs consistently every 30-50 minutes all day. The 18:15 and 18:35 trips end at the Shell gas station on McKenzie Lake Blvd (south end) yet the 23:45 and 00:19 trips continue to the north end near the Esso gas station. In addition to all this, after leaving Anderson, the bus has three different short layovers before returning to Anderson. This all makes for an inconsistent and ridiculous schedule. So again I ask, why??? 

Winnipeg Transit did that alot too - when I used to live there, it was all topsy-turvy, especially at the end of service. They mostly did it though for cost-cutting measures, deadheading buses across the city (or back to garage), filling up the 2nd and 3rd buses with riders & because in some parts of Winnipeg (the parts that resemble McKenzie Towne in Calgary, the newer suburbs), there was no bus loop infrastructure or transit-only washrooms installed in small bus loops, like I used to see in pre-1980s Winnipeg. They would stop the drivers in front of Tims, 7-11, all sorts of places, to ensure drivers had a chance to use the washroom, buy coffee, lunch, etc.

I'm not sure what may cause it out here in Calgary, but driver stops and breaks to get water and food might explain the gas station stops. As for buses ending early and not finishing the route, it might be related to Winnipeg reasons, or now that I think about it - reaching that magical revenue passengers per hour number (22+) needed to keep service. 

[downbeat]

Well this is depressing … newly reduced weekend headways on Route 1, coupled with severe delays. I hope this doesn’t become a regular weekend occurrence.

(And I’ll be really peeved if Transit comes back to make more cuts because of declining ridership. Talk about self-inflicted injuries.)

[Transit Fan]

Hopefully they can wrap up the construction in the west end soon.

Although the Max Purple was running a bit late (10-25 minutes) this afternoon as well. Not sure if there was heavy traffic in downtown or 9th Ave again.