Jump to content
2044

TTC Nova LFS orders

Recommended Posts

Rather than that make a 54E Route and then have it express from Eglintoin Station to Leslie and Lawrence E. That would save customers time and space on buses.

They tried that when the bus lanes were first put in back in the early 1970s and it didn't work then so what says it'll work now with traffic being way worst now then before?!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The existing platforms, yes. All they'd need to do is reconfigure the routes and they'd be set. Chances are, you'd see the 32 use the west and east sides of the station at Eg West, with the 63 and 109 being moved to the north side.

As for Eglinton, there's a longer platform available on the north side, currently used by the (I believe) 32C (I haven't been in years). And realistically you only need 1 platform if you're using artics. Just wait in the shadows, pull up, load, go. No dwelling.

Eventually TTC will have to adjust these platforms at subway stations. TTC shouldn't avoid routes just because the platforms are too short. They re-did a platform at Jane Station for the Hybrids. And the Artics seems as though they will be around longer than the Hybrid buses.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This will make service worse for more people than it helps. You would also need to add more tracks to Bathurst Station otherwise you will have frequent bidirectional through the same set of tracks which will be confusing.

Southbound 511 will stop on street (and not enter the station) and people need to take transfer to board it. That solves the bidirectional track problem. Similar to 29 at Dufferin Stn and at times of huge load, get a conductor there to monitor for rear door boarded. If it can be done at Dufferin (one of the busiest bus routes and both goes to CNE), why not Bathurst.

Northbound 511 will enter the station and then continue north.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Southbound 511 will stop on street (and not enter the station) and people need to take transfer to board it. That solves the bidirectional track problem. Similar to 29 at Dufferin Stn and at times of huge load, get a conductor there to monitor for rear door boarded. If it can be done at Dufferin (one of the busiest bus routes and both goes to CNE), why not Bathurst.

Northbound 511 will enter the station and then continue north.

So your plan introduces many levels of discomfort to riders :). Extra transfer, waiting for the streetcar outside. Why not make it run once every 30 minutes while you are at it. :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So your plan introduces many levels of discomfort to riders :). Extra transfer, waiting for the streetcar outside. Why not make it run once every 30 minutes while you are at it. :)

If shortening the 7 to St Clair West makes it more reliable then why not... Think of the folks taking the 7 with more reliable service by not running it down to Bloor. Also, a portion of the current passengers taking 511 at Bathurst right now might be taking it from St Clair West as they come from that side so no discomfort for them.

The folks over at Dufferin Stn going southboard has to do the same by waiting outside too.

How often is there working trackage for streetcar rails such as this route that is up and ready to be implemented but not in use? No money need to lay down extra track.

Or option 2 is to lay extra tracks into the current 7 bus side; this way NB and SB will be inside and separate. You don't even need to widen the existing 511 side like Dundas/Broadview stations did. The bus side will be empty when the 7 goes away so there's potential there for 511 SB to stop there.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Southbound 511 will stop on street (and not enter the station) and people need to take transfer to board it. That solves the bidirectional track problem. Similar to 29 at Dufferin Stn and at times of huge load, get a conductor there to monitor for rear door boarded. If it can be done at Dufferin (one of the busiest bus routes and both goes to CNE), why not Bathurst.

Northbound 511 will enter the station and then continue north.

Southbound 511 can enter the station using this track.

XeqBLEC.jpg

However, if there is a CLRV already there, the streetcar trying to enter will have its end stick out into the road (I've read about it on Steve Munro's site). Not really a good idea, but the track is there if needed.

As for the bidirectional track problem, it's not really an issue at St. Clair West. That being said, the platform is longer there allowing for different stopping positions. However, people should look at the destination signs posted at the front and above the door before boarding.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If shortening the 7 to St Clair West makes it more reliable then why not... Think of the folks taking the 7 with more reliable service by not running it down to Bloor. Also, a portion of the current passengers taking 511 at Bathurst right now might be taking it from St Clair West as they come from that side so no discomfort for them.

Don't know if you've ever actually taken the 7 bus, but a high proportion of riders take it from north of St. Clair to the Subway and likewise from points of south of St. Clair to destinations north of St. Clair. So all those riders will have to wait for two vehicles and have a transfer instead of waiting for one vehicle. Main reason this will likely never happen is that a transfer is considered about 6.67 worse than a minute of waiting time by the TTC (or at least that was the old formula) so a change where you introduce a transfer and waiting time would never happen.
The folks over at Dufferin Stn going southboard has to do the same by waiting outside too.
The difference with the Dufferin bus is that they have always waited outside, but on Bathurst you are proposing to kick people outside who have been on the covered platform for over 40 years.

Southbound 511 can enter the station using this track.

I am well aware of the track layout at Bathurst, but with new longer streetcars would there be room for 2 cars on the current platform?
As for the bidirectional track problem, it's not really an issue at St. Clair West. That being said, the platform is longer there allowing for different stopping positions. However, people should look at the destination signs posted at the front and above the door before boarding.
If I remember St. Clair West correctly, there is quite a walk from where the stairs are to where the streetcars stop so there is time to see what the signs say - on top of different directions stopping in different places. At Bathurst if you are running up the stairs and see "511" back destination sign you keep running since they are all southbound :)

There is also a secod track so that streetcars going in different directions can pass each other which doesn't exist at Bathurst. At Bathurst any movement would requiry a turns onto Bathurst and back to the station which could be difficult given traffic conditions.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Eventually TTC will have to adjust these platforms at subway stations. TTC shouldn't avoid routes just because the platforms are too short. They re-did a platform at Jane Station for the Hybrids. And the Artics seems as though they will be around longer than the Hybrid buses.

That is a different situation though. With the 35 platform they had to extend it width wise (outwards onto the driveway) so that the battery packs didn't touch the canopy above. With adjusting the platforms for artics they have to extend the platforms length wise which effects length of the next platform behind it. It is not impossible but at some stations it'll likely result in the loss of at least one bus bay, and/or make turns tighter when buses are in the bays.

If shortening the 7 to St Clair West makes it more reliable then why not... Think of the folks taking the 7 with more reliable service by not running it down to Bloor.

Someone can correct me here if I'm wrong, a couple years back during the track replacement project on Bathurst when the TTC ran split 7A (St Clair West Stn-Steeles) and 7B (Bathurst/Spadina Stn-St Clair West Stn) service the 7A branch was still running with the same problems of gaps in service, late buses, etc.

The folks over at Dufferin Stn going southboard has to do the same by waiting outside too.

The Dufferin passengers don't have to wait outside, it is their choice. You can still wait indoor until the bus arrives, just like at stations with bus terminals.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Someone can correct me here if I'm wrong, a couple years back during the track replacement project on Bathurst when the TTC ran split 7A (St Clair West Stn-Steeles) and 7B (Bathurst/Spadina Stn-St Clair West Stn) service the 7A branch was still running with the same problems of gaps in service, late buses, etc.

Oh yeah you reminded me of that routing too; curious as to how it went.

I think the easiest way for artics to be re-introduced is to put them on the previous Orion III routes because:

1) If they put IIIs on them before, there must be a reason and that reason is probably still there as the population of Toronto is not decreasing.

2) The III routes accomodated 60ft buses well, so there should be no problem accomodating them again unless infrastructures were shortened after the IIIs were retired?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Do you guys know when the first TTC Nova Articulated bus start to arrive?

There's still a ways to go. They are expected to be here by the Fall of this year.

There might be a pilot before then...but thats just speculation.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There's still a ways to go. They are expected to be here by the Fall of this year.

There might be a pilot before then...but thats just speculation.

Can't get here soon enough.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

What... SCW isn't the real terminal stop of the 7??? ;)

A few years back it was the 7C for the northern leg and 7B for the southern leg. One issue with running the 511 into SCW is that during rush hours, the station often gets very congested already, with riders and vehicles especially if there's bunching and gapping on the 512. Often the spare track is full with two streetcars already with short turned cars. And if a car gets disabled there, it'll be bad.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

by august 25 2013 arrow road will have a least 3

I've heard so many rumors about this. Its not worth coming on here, hearing things and turning it into facts (Something I quickly learned since being with TTC). What is confirmed though is fall 2013. I'm pretty sure TTC is still thinking about where to put the buses themselves.

Unless you know someone in the Bus Engineering Department at Hillcrest, it just rumors. Even the people at each garage get misinformed.

There was rumor that Russel was suppose to have two sets of rows/tracks built for the new Streetcars, But since then, I see construction going on at Roncy for the new streetcars.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

TTC is exercising the option to increase the order of 27 Artics to 153 Artics - from next week's meeting - http://www.ttc.ca/Ab...26_sixty_f1.pdf

Thanks for the link. While the Commission still officially needs to approve it, I only see that as a formality and it's pretty much a done deal. I'm surprised they went ahead and increased the order, my understanding was that the TTC would evaluate the first order of 27 and if they were satisfactory with them in service the next batch would be ordered.

The report is also interesting in that it specifically states routes: 25 Don Mills 29 Dufferin, 36 Finch West. These routes at peak right now require 107 buses; if we assume a 15% spare ratio that leaves 123 required. This is also assuming the number of buses on the route won't be decreased due to the higher capacity of the artics, so there's got to be other routes the artics are going onto (conveniently that would be the entire first order).

Now onto the inevitable speculation of allocation - all 3 routes are out of different divisions (25 at Eglinton, 29 at Wilson, 36 at Arrow). I don't see artics going to Eglinton especially with its outdoor storage, and I don't see Birchmount being able to handle that many artics. The next closest division for the 25 would be Wilson. I've also heard rumours that artics won't go to Arrow and the 36 will change divisions, of which Wilson is easily the closest.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thanks for the link. While the Commission still officially needs to approve it, I only see that as a formality and it's pretty much a done deal. I'm surprised they went ahead and increased the order, my understanding was that the TTC would evaluate the first order of 27 and if they were satisfactory with them in service the next batch would be ordered.

Yes, they could've evaluated them, to what end? There may be minor tweaking if any. They meet the specs. they need them, they made a choice, for better or worse they're stuck with them now, satisfactory or not. Let's just get on with it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Wilson will probably take up all three routes. Concentrate them at one garage, plus Wilson has the DEF fueling. Keep it simple for now, untill other garages get Artics and DEF stations, which can easily be built at any garage.

TTC probably has no choice when it comes to Artics, thats why they are going head on with this order. Nova was the closest to meeting TTC requirements at 84% compliance (?), compared to NFI.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This is also assuming the number of buses on the route won't be decreased due to the higher capacity of the artics, so there's got to be other routes the artics are going onto (conveniently that would be the entire first order).

They've already indicated that the number of buses on the routes would be decreased. The report says "Through the use of Articulated Buses in place of forty foot buses immediate savings can be realized as a result of the reduction in drivers required to operate the smaller quantity of buses to achieve an equivalent ridership capacity."

In the report to the commission of September 27, 2012 they noted that "... related operating savings as a result of a reduction in the required number of operators to provide the same service ... Each Low Floor Articulated Bus replaces roughly 1.35 40-foot Low Floor Buses.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yes, they could've evaluated them, to what end?

To see if they are a worthwhile investment.

That's what they did with the GM artics, and then they found out that they were junk - thus they didn't buy anymore. Then they bought the Orion artics sight-unseen, and, well, we know how well that worked out, don't we?

Dan

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

To see if they are a worthwhile investment.

That's what they did with the GM artics, and then they found out that they were junk - thus they didn't buy anymore. Then they bought the Orion artics sight-unseen, and, well, we know how well that worked out, don't we?

Dan

Junk? The TTC didn't like them because they were different and complicated. But as we all know articulated buses are more complicated as compared to 40'ers and will require more maintenance.

I don't think it's accurate to claim that the GM artics were any worse than what other manufactures were offering at the time. There were some issues with them, I don't deny that but they were prototypes and GM worked to fix the major issues quickly.

I think we can say with certainty that the GM artic was a much better bus (for many reasons) then the Ikarus was.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×
×
  • Create New...