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O-Train Line 1 | The Confederation Line


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5 hours ago, OCCheetos said:

@sseguin works on the O-Train Fans website, which isn't affiliated with the City or OC Transpo.

Right, but isn't he himself an LRT operator? I must be mistaking him for another person...

5 hours ago, Centralsmt said:

Facts

As the saying goes "if it looks like a duck, if it quacks like a duck, then it probably is a duck".

Of course, facts above all.

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14 hours ago, HB_1024 said:

If I am remembering things correctly, the Toronto Rockets had doors that timed out similarly to ours, and they had serious problems with that. I don't know how they fixed that problem, but perhaps OC and/or Alstom can look into that and take similar action.

Actually, the issues with the doors of the Toronto Rockets stemmed from a change in procedure from the older fleets, and not hardware or software.


Nothing was ever changed with them, and once the crews got used to the new procedures everything worked out fine.


 

17 hours ago, Centralsmt said:

Not if the trains were built to OC Specification, they could have specified the door times.

Dwell times are built into the ATO system. And any good system worth its salt is capable of modifying them on individual stations, and even making changes to the dwell times on a time-of-day basis.


There have been things said about the particular system used on the Confederation Line by people using it day-to-day that make me worry that it's not even worth that, however.


Dan

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Alrighty guys, I guess this could go in the misc. Thread, but it's LRT specific so I'd rather ask here. I'm purchasing a "new" camera. (DSLR) today and would like to try it out in the LRT tunnel. What station do you think would be great at getting shots of trains in tunnel, Lyon, Parliament or Rideau? I'm thinking Parliament as it's pretty much just straight track, but I wonder if any of you have a better idea.

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On 10/10/2019 at 8:17 AM, MCIBUS said:

I can't seeing Ottawa being the only city that has Transit issues(rail?) I'm guessing the TTC, GO Transit, Montreal's Subway, Edmonton's & Calgary's LRT,BC Sky Train must have issues as well. Whether there are as OC is experiencing I don't, but come on other systems have issues every day, what makes OC an exception.

 

Yes I know the system new, but doesn't mean you'll won't have issues. It's one thing when it's mechanical issues, but it's another when it's done by passenger  stupidity?

As someone who works for Calgary Transit and has driven LRVs, in my opinion I think there's a few problems with the O-Train, many of which will work themselves out.  The biggest is just unfamiliarity of both Transit workers AND customers; once people learn how the doors work, it becomes less of a problem.  LRT is new to Ottawa, so it takes time to adjust.  People in many of the other cities you've listed have had LRVs for decades - even if new models of LRVs arrive, operation isn't typically that different from one model to the next, and the customers and employees are used to the system.  Of course we have door problems, but we're just used to dealing with them.

There's a few other issues that hopefully OC Transpo will learn quickly and adjust (some they've already said they're changing)  - when you have a problem LRV door on the main line, you can't take time to fix it; just turn it off and lock it closed.  Trying to get it working will take way too long and will destroy your service (especially when people are unfamiliar with them). 

John Manconi also said that the doors are designed to fail open after 3 failed attempts to close, which is way too few.  Here in Calgary, we found it was causing too many problems after failing open after 6 attempts, so we changed it to 30.  When it's busy, people and their stuff are always getting in the way, so if the door fails open after only three attempts, you're constantly going to be dealing with doors failed open.

I believe they also mentioned that the doors have a safety eye/beam to detect obstructions, which can also cause delays.  In all but our oldest trains, as soon as the doors are deactivated (our doors open with push buttons), the safety beam deactivates.  This prevents people's feet, bags, strollers, etc. from accidentally blocking the door (unintentionally or on purpose) - the sensitive edge is still active to detect any obstruction.

While many are understandably upset and bashing LRT for the rocky start, I believe it will be a great system for Ottawa in the future.  My two cents anyway.

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How come ION don't have door problems? They are the launch customer for the Flexity Freedom and GRT has never had experience with LRT before. Their only problem so far (as I read from their thread on this board) is slower than normal operating speeds. I don't see ION being on the news every day like OC Transpo's LRT is currently experiencing.

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What are the passenger loads like for ION compared to Ottawa?  Most door problems don't occur until you hit near-crush loads.  According to their schedule, ION LRVs also generally only run at most on a 10-minute headway.  You've got lots of time to resolve and go around issues when you've got 10 minutes between trains.  If trains are every 2 or 3 minutes, problems get bad pretty fast.

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On 10/8/2019 at 11:40 PM, tomsbuspage said:

Here is a letter from John Manconi explaining and apologising for this morning's disruption:

http://www.octranspo.com/en/letter-from-the-general-manager

OC Transpo's letter had been updated to include yesterday's disruption and improvements to Tunney's Pasture and Blair stations.

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3 hours ago, Cityflyer said:

How come ION don't have door problems? They are the launch customer for the Flexity Freedom and GRT has never had experience with LRT before. Their only problem so far (as I read from their thread on this board) is slower than normal operating speeds. I don't see ION being on the news every day like OC Transpo's LRT is currently experiencing.

Because the ION cars were based on the Toronto Flexity cars, which have been in service for 6 years now.

 

And they do/did have some door issues, but they've been largely resolved by now.


Dan

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3 hours ago, Cityflyer said:

How come ION don't have door problems? They are the launch customer for the Flexity Freedom and GRT has never had experience with LRT before. Their only problem so far (as I read from their thread on this board) is slower than normal operating speeds. I don't see ION being on the news every day like OC Transpo's LRT is currently experiencing.

Far fewer doors and far less crowding,  there are about 4 main sections of track where the majority of trips take place:

Conestoga-UW, UW-Willis Way/Uptown, Uptown-Central, Downtown-Fairview. 

Because trips on the line are generally less than 5 km (and the only major transfer points are the terminals), there are never too many people waiting at a given station (with the exception being UW during the afternoon rush). 1K PPHPD is plenty for the time being. 

Another thing is that drivers tend to hold the doors here if they see a runner. The schedule is so heavily padded that they can easily make up the extra 15-30 seconds, and trains are far enough apart that they won't affect the rest of the system. 

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11 hours ago, Loud-Invero said:

Right, but isn't he himself an LRT operator? I must be mistaking him for another person...

As the saying goes "if it looks like a duck, if it quacks like a duck, then it probably is a duck".

Of course, facts above all.

Just to clarify, I don't work for OC Transpo or the city, and neither am I an operator. :( , except for twice in the simulator.

You may be thinking of Ken Woods?

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On 10/11/2019 at 12:40 PM, CTrainDude said:

when you have a problem LRV door on the main line, you can't take time to fix it; just turn it off and lock it closed.  Trying to get it working will take way too long and will destroy your service (especially when people are unfamiliar with them). 

They can't do that though, the issue we're having is that the doors are being forced off their track and cannot move because of that. So the process to get the train back is different.

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1 hour ago, corynv said:

They can't do that though, the issue we're having is that the doors are being forced off their track and cannot move because of that. So the process to get the train back is different.

If that's the case, it again comes down to experience and practice - get that train out of there as fast as you can.  Maybe this was done, but you get everyone off, close the door physically as much as you can, bypass the door safety loop (I'm assuming the Alstom LRVs have a bypass to move trains with doors open), and move the train out of the way with someone guarding the door to ensure no one gets on as it passes stations.

Are there any sidings to park a disabled LRV out of the way quickly, or does everything have to go to the maintenance yard?

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54 minutes ago, CTrainDude said:

Are there any sidings to park a disabled LRV out of the way quickly, or does everything have to go to the maintenance yard?

The city didn't have enough foresight to build any tail tracks at the terminal stations or any mid line pocket tracks. So if theres a disabled train, it has to be taken to the maintenance yard. 

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17 hours ago, CTrainDude said:

If that's the case, it again comes down to experience and practice - get that train out of there as fast as you can.  Maybe this was done, but you get everyone off, close the door physically as much as you can, bypass the door safety loop (I'm assuming the Alstom LRVs have a bypass to move trains with doors open), and move the train out of the way with someone guarding the door to ensure no one gets on as it passes stations.

Are there any sidings to park a disabled LRV out of the way quickly, or does everything have to go to the maintenance yard?

There is a bypass for that, but it involved the train not being able to use the CTBC anymore, there was a twitter thread from an operator/controller of the line that went into detail on what was happening.

 

 

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On 10/13/2019 at 3:48 PM, corynv said:

There is a bypass for that, but it involved the train not being able to use the CTBC anymore, there was a twitter thread from an operator/controller of the line that went into detail on what was happening.

 

 

I hope to hell what he's written here isn't true, because that is a very, very serious oversight in the design of the signalling system. No signal system in the world loses track of a train if it goes into manual mode.

 

Dan

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No tail tracks is a pretty iffy call; with phase 2 moving forward, presumably they won't get added as an interim measure because it would screw with the delicate PPP contracts? Zero pockets is pretty wild too - you'd think one of the damn sinkholes they made would have been wide enough to put one in!

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5 hours ago, smallspy said:

I hope to hell what he's written here isn't true, because that is a very, very serious oversight in the design of the signalling system. No signal system in the world loses track of a train if it goes into manual mode.

 

Dan

It's not about going into manual mode, the only way to move a train with a door that's left open is to by-pass ALL safety protections. the CTBC  won't let the train move at all if it's detecting a single door's left open. Trains can 100% operate in manual control, and still be on CTBC. 

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2 hours ago, corynv said:

It's not about going into manual mode, the only way to move a train with a door that's left open is to by-pass ALL safety protections. the CTBC  won't let the train move at all if it's detecting a single door's left open. Trains can 100% operate in manual control, and still be on CTBC. 

That's what I mean - the system shouldn't be designed like that that.

 

The state of the train itself should have no bearing on the signal system. The point of the signal system is to identify the trains, know where they are on the line at any given time, ensure that routing (and in some cases, scheduling) are kept, and keep them separated from each other - thus preventing any accidents.

 

I have never heard of a signal system that is designed to also require that each train's state also be broadcast and computed. That's absurd, and a needless waste of bytes.

 

Dan

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9 hours ago, smallspy said:

I hope to hell what he's written here isn't true, because that is a very, very serious oversight in the design of the signalling system. No signal system in the world loses track of a train if it goes into manual mode.

It seems that's how the software worked in T&C mode. The version in revenue operation allows the doors to be bypassed while in CBTC.

 

2 hours ago, smallspy said:

I have never heard of a signal system that is designed to also require that each train's state also be broadcast and computed. That's absurd, and a needless waste of bytes.

Err, isn't this the entire basis and point of Communications-based Train Control?

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14 hours ago, OCCheetos said:

It seems that's how the software worked in T&C mode. The version in revenue operation allows the doors to be bypassed while in CBTC.

That doesn't make sense either - for the same reasons that I listed earlier.

 

14 hours ago, OCCheetos said:

 

Err, isn't this the entire basis and point of Communications-based Train Control?

The actual signal system that controls the trains? No, not at all.


And that's part of the problem. People conflate the CBTC with a signal system. It is not. It's a set of methodologies that allow for both modern, moving block signalling systems and also Automatic Train Operation. But it's not required for either, to be honest.

 

For the record, what should be monitoring the status of each train is the SCADA system that also uses the CBTC system to communicate with the trains.

 

Dan

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Posted today on the O-Train Fans youtube channel, POV videos REAR VIEW end-to-end in both directions.

Blair to Tunney's Pasture - REAR VIEW - 8x Speed
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EpMrQBQOnP0

Tunney's Pasture to Blair - REAR VIEW - 8x Speed
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SHgNH_RGEAU

Blair to Tunney's Pasture - REAR VIEW
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m9RvqvuIaz8

Tunney's Pasture to Blair - REAR VIEW
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZmobVyzhxOk

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