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9 hours ago, FlyerD901 said:

Love the movement history with year and what division. Do you only have it for the GMs. Do you have a break down of the 1981 and 1985-86 Flyers? 

I will try my best to do an abridged history, as the history of any given bus fleet can be quite long and if I tried to account for every single bus that ever changed divisions the post would be too long. Though I tried to account for every notable movement (i.e. an order being introduced to a division for a first time), I may have glossed over some data every now and then so just bear that in mind. If you have a specific unit you have in mind I can do a more granular allocation history for it, just let me know.

The 1981 Flyers were initially divided up between Queensway (8380-8414 and 8482-8486), Eglinton (8450-8481,) and Wilson (8415-8449). In 1983 Eglinton was noted as having received 8414, while 8456 was traded to Queensway.

The 1985s were divided between Wilson (6000-6021), Queensway (6022-6047), Eglinton (6048-6072), Malvern (6073-6085, 6098-6109), and Birchmount (6086-6097 and 6110-6122).

The 1986s went to Wilson (6130-6149), Eglinton (6150-59), Birchmount (6160-6174), Queensway (6175-6189), and Malvern (6190-6204). 6185-6189 were sent to Malvern by June 1988.

Lakeshore acquired 8477-8486 by June 1988, but this seems to have been a temporary thing as the September 1988 allocation sheet has it back to being an all MCI garage again.

Malvern sustained big losses later that year - by December 1988 it was down to 7 Flyers, 6109, 6199, and 6200-6204. By this time Danforth had acquired 8414 and 8467-8476, while Arrow Road received: 6015-6028, 6072-6085, 6098, 6130-6159, 6185-6198, 8395-8399, 8400-8413, 8433-8449, 8456. Eglinton retained 6048-6071 and 8450-8455, 8457-8466, 8477-8481 and Wilson was left with 6000-6014, 6099-6108, and 8415-8432. Queensway had 6029-6047, 6175-6184, 8380-8394 and 8482-8486. No change for Birchmount.

Malvern had two pre-1985 Flyers in February 1990, 8393 and 8394, but this may have been a temporary movement to help with a vehicle shortage as they were not there by April (back to Queensway). At this point, 6185-6189 and 8414 went to Eglinton and Birchmount was enriched by the arrival of 6098. Wilson also acquired 8467-8476. All of these save for 8476 were returned to Danforth by November (Danforth receiving 8466 instead).

In 1991 Eglinton lost 6061-6071 to Lansdowne. Wilson gained 6029-6037 and 8409-8413.

In November 1991, the split was as follows:

  • 6109, 6199-6204 at Malvern (7),
  • 8429-8432 and 8466-8476 at Danforth (15),
  • 6086-6098, 6110-6122, 6160-6174 at Birchmount (41),
  • 6048-6060, 6185-6189, 8414, 8450-8455, 8457-8465, 8477-8486 at Eglinton (44),
  • 6061-6071 at Lansdowne (10),
  • 6038-6047, 6175-6184, and 8380-8394 at Queensway (35),
  • 6015-6028,6072-6085, 6130-6159, 6190-6198, 8395-8399, 8400-8408, 8415-8428, 8433-8449, 8456 at Arrow (113),
  • 6000-6014, 6029-6037, 6099-6108, 8409-8413 at Wilson (39).

8409-8413 and 8420 were moved to Eglinton in January 1992, robbing Wilson of their 1981s. 8380-8381 went from Queensway to Lansdowne.

In April 1992, 8395-8419, 8421-8422 joined Queensway. A single D901, 8420, was at Davenport. 6010-6014, 6099, 8382-8384 graced Danforth with their presence in June 1992. The lone weirdo from Davenport, 8420, was sent to Lansdowne in July.

In December 1992, Malvern had 6195-6204. 6008-6009, 8385-8392 went to Danforth, 8420 returned for some inexplicable reason to Davenport, then to Danforth in January 1993. This was also the first big reshuffling for Birchmount, in January 1993 they were left with 6086-6098, 6109-6122, and 6168-6174. 6000-6007 and 6160-6164 went to Arrow Road and 6165-6167 went to Eglinton. 8433-8440 went to Wilson, but by June 1993 they had been reassigned again, with 8434-8440 going to Danforth and 8433 to Queensway.

In June '93 8420 was at Lansdowne again. In July 1993 Birchmount lost 6171-6174, which went to Lansdowne together with 6175-6177 from Queensway. In September, 6168-6170 went from Birchmount to Lansdowne, and 6202-6204 went from Malvern to Lansdowne. In January 1994, 8420 was finally at Queensway.

Birchmount gained additional equipment by May 1994, getting 6005, 6079-6080, and 6155. 8433 was at Arrow in July 1994.

This seems like a reasonable place to stop for now as I have work and frankly my eyes are getting a little strained from all the numbers, but when I have the free time to do so I will pick this up and continue tracing the allocation history of these buses. To break up the gargantuan wall of text, here are my photos of the only D901 I ever photographed, 6104. :)

10367613113_538b67d920_b.jpg

10367401384_518d32b1d8_b.jpg

10367413136_cbe54a1aac_b.jpg

51123679149_4462d25402_b.jpg

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1 hour ago, T3G said:

I will try my best to do an abridged history, as the history of any given bus fleet can be quite long and if I tried to account for every single bus that ever changed divisions the post would be too long. Though I tried to account for every notable movement (i.e. an order being introduced to a division for a first time), I may have glossed over some data every now and then so just bear that in mind. If you have a specific unit you have in mind I can do a more granular allocation history for it, just let me know.

The 1981 Flyers were initially divided up between Queensway (8380-8414 and 8482-8486), Eglinton (8450-8481,) and Wilson (8415-8449). In 1983 Eglinton was noted as having received 8414, while 8456 was traded to Queensway.

The 1985s were divided between Wilson (6000-6021), Queensway (6022-6047), Eglinton (6048-6072), Malvern (6073-6085, 6098-6109), and Birchmount (6086-6097 and 6110-6122).

The 1986s went to Wilson (6130-6149), Eglinton (6150-59), Birchmount (6160-6174), Queensway (6175-6189), and Malvern (6190-6204). 6185-6189 were sent to Malvern by June 1988.

Lakeshore acquired 8477-8486 by June 1988, but this seems to have been a temporary thing as the September 1988 allocation sheet has it back to being an all MCI garage again.

Malvern sustained big losses later that year - by December 1988 it was down to 7 Flyers, 6109, 6199, and 6200-6204. By this time Danforth had acquired 8414 and 8467-8476, while Arrow Road received: 6015-6028, 6072-6085, 6098, 6130-6159, 6185-6198, 8395-8399, 8400-8413, 8433-8449, 8456. Eglinton retained 6048-6071 and 8450-8455, 8457-8466, 8477-8481 and Wilson was left with 6000-6014, 6099-6108, and 8415-8432. Queensway had 6029-6047, 6175-6184, 8380-8394 and 8482-8486. No change for Birchmount.

Malvern had two pre-1985 Flyers in February 1990, 8393 and 8394, but this may have been a temporary movement to help with a vehicle shortage as they were not there by April (back to Queensway). At this point, 6185-6189 and 8414 went to Eglinton and Birchmount was enriched by the arrival of 6098. Wilson also acquired 8467-8476. All of these save for 8476 were returned to Danforth by November (Danforth receiving 8466 instead).

In 1991 Eglinton lost 6061-6071 to Lansdowne. Wilson gained 6029-6037 and 8409-8413.

In November 1991, the split was as follows:

  • 6109, 6199-6204 at Malvern (7),
  • 8429-8432 and 8466-8476 at Danforth (15),
  • 6086-6098, 6110-6122, 6160-6174 at Birchmount (41),
  • 6048-6060, 6185-6189, 8414, 8450-8455, 8457-8465, 8477-8486 at Eglinton (44),
  • 6061-6071 at Lansdowne (10),
  • 6038-6047, 6175-6184, and 8380-8394 at Queensway (35),
  • 6015-6028,6072-6085, 6130-6159, 6190-6198, 8395-8399, 8400-8408, 8415-8428, 8433-8449, 8456 at Arrow (113),
  • 6000-6014, 6029-6037, 6099-6108, 8409-8413 at Wilson (39).

8409-8413 and 8420 were moved to Eglinton in January 1992, robbing Wilson of their 1981s. 8380-8381 went from Queensway to Lansdowne.

In April 1992, 8395-8419, 8421-8422 joined Queensway. A single D901, 8420, was at Davenport. 6010-6014, 6099, 8382-8384 graced Danforth with their presence in June 1992. The lone weirdo from Davenport, 8420, was sent to Lansdowne in July.

In December 1992, Malvern had 6195-6204. 6008-6009, 8385-8392 went to Danforth, 8420 returned for some inexplicable reason to Davenport, then to Danforth in January 1993. This was also the first big reshuffling for Birchmount, in January 1993 they were left with 6086-6098, 6109-6122, and 6168-6174. 6000-6007 and 6160-6164 went to Arrow Road and 6165-6167 went to Eglinton. 8433-8440 went to Wilson, but by June 1993 they had been reassigned again, with 8434-8440 going to Danforth and 8433 to Queensway.

In June '93 8420 was at Lansdowne again. In July 1993 Birchmount lost 6171-6174, which went to Lansdowne together with 6175-6177 from Queensway. In September, 6168-6170 went from Birchmount to Lansdowne, and 6202-6204 went from Malvern to Lansdowne. In January 1994, 8420 was finally at Queensway.

Birchmount gained additional equipment by May 1994, getting 6005, 6079-6080, and 6155. 8433 was at Arrow in July 1994.

This seems like a reasonable place to stop for now as I have work and frankly my eyes are getting a little strained from all the numbers, but when I have the free time to do so I will pick this up and continue tracing the allocation history of these buses. To break up the gargantuan wall of text, here are my photos of the only D901 I ever photographed, 6104. :)

 

 

 

 

Thanks. I appreciate the breakdown. I wanted to know how they were divided up when they started. 8420 was the Yellow Pages bus, so I guess it toured various garages. The big thing for me was what year Danforth received Flyers, and what year Wilson lost them. And Where the A/C 8400 were when they started, and where/if they were ever at a garage besides Eglinton and Queensway. But I agree, my question was vague , so thanks for the response.

The A/C Flyers I assumed left Queensway After Gray Coach shut down in 1990? before then the batch was back and forth between Lake Shore and Queensway?

 

 

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10 hours ago, FlyerD901 said:

Thanks. I appreciate the breakdown. I wanted to know how they were divided up when they started. 8420 was the Yellow Pages bus, so I guess it toured various garages. The big thing for me was what year Danforth received Flyers, and what year Wilson lost them. And Where the A/C 8400 were when they started, and where/if they were ever at a garage besides Eglinton and Queensway. But I agree, my question was vague , so thanks for the response.

The A/C Flyers I assumed left Queensway After Gray Coach shut down in 1990? before then the batch was back and forth between Lake Shore and Queensway?

 

 

The last A/C Flyer #8480 spend its final days at Queensway.

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21 hours ago, FlyerD901 said:

Thanks. I appreciate the breakdown. I wanted to know how they were divided up when they started. 8420 was the Yellow Pages bus, so I guess it toured various garages. The big thing for me was what year Danforth received Flyers, and what year Wilson lost them. And Where the A/C 8400 were when they started, and where/if they were ever at a garage besides Eglinton and Queensway. But I agree, my question was vague , so thanks for the response.

The A/C Flyers I assumed left Queensway After Gray Coach shut down in 1990? before then the batch was back and forth between Lake Shore and Queensway?

 

 

No worries! I suppose it would've made sense to ask you what specific information you were looking for rather than just rattling off the entire history of the fleet LOL. Addressing your questions will probably make more sense than doing what I did yesterday again.

I have no evidence to suggest Lake Shore was a garage which ever regularly stored Flyers. My allocation sheets have the A/C Flyers 8477-8486 split between Eglinton and Queensway, initially 8477-81 at Eglinton and 8482-86 at Queensway. The whole lot of them went to Lakeshore in June '88 as mentioned, but the old split was restored by September (no intermediate allocation details for the summer break months). Maybe some digging in the history of Gray Coach would explain why this came to be, that is an era of the TTC I have very little knowledge about.

8482-86 went to Birchmount in February 1990 (this was something I failed to notice yesterday), but in March they went back to Queensway (this is probably why I failed to notice). By August 1, 1991, 8477-8486 were all at Eglinton. They remained here until 8482 and 8483 were briefly loaned to Arrow for the June 1995 allocation sheet.

8477-8482 were moved to Queensway in May 1996. All but 8477 went back to Eglinton in March 1998. 8478 rejoined Queensway's ranks in May, and what remained of the batch was consolidated at Queensway in July 1998: that being 8480-8481, 8485-8486 (8477-8479 and 8482-8484 being moved into dead storage at this time). By December 1998, 8480 was the last surviving bus of the batch, and this was retired in 1999.

As for Wilson, their ranks of D901s began to diminish in 1992. In April they had 34: 6000-6014, 6029-6037, 6099-6108. By June, they were down to 28 (6000-6009, 6029-6037, 6100-6108), in early 1993 they got a reprise in the form of 8433-8440, but these were gone by June, leaving them with only 18 (6029-6037 and 6100-6108). At some point between June and October 1995 these were broken up: 6029-6036 and 6100-6102 went to Eglinton, 6037 to Arrow, 6103-6108 to Birchmount. Wilson instead got 6091 from Birchmount, then later in the year 6030, 6035, and 6100 too, but all of these were gone by February 1996 except for 6091. This left in June 1996 for Birchmount. This was the end of Wilson being a continuous Flyer division, but not the last time a Flyer ran out of there: in February 1999 they for some reason (CNG trouble perhaps?) received 6183, 84, 87, 94, 97 and 8391, 8408, 21, 31, 43, 62. All of these were gone by January 2000 (when precisely I can't say, I have nothing from March '99 until January '00), leaving Wilson as an almost entirely GM division except for the CNG Orions. That was the last time a D901 was allocated out of Wilson.

I had no idea 8420 was the Yellow Pages bus, I guess that's one of those things you can't gleam from looking at allocation sheets and you need external context.

All of this is neat to look at from a bus fan's perspective, and I would love to go back to this era of Toronto, but I feel for the maintenance personnel of the era who had to learn how to service so many small batches of unique buses. I have no idea why the TTC did it like this for so long.

  

22 hours ago, Shaun said:

Those buses are scrapped now right?

Since 2016 or so.

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6 hours ago, PrimeTio said:

Pretty much all of them have been scrapped, but someone could have preserved one of those.

Speaking of scrapped, it’s unknown where TTC #7972 is still around. In 2011, one user took a pic of a GO D40S and that bus near Caledon.

 

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16 hours ago, T3G said:

No worries! I suppose it would've made sense to ask you what specific information you were looking for rather than just rattling off the entire history of the fleet LOL. Addressing your questions will probably make more sense than doing what I did yesterday again.

I have no evidence to suggest Lake Shore was a garage which ever regularly stored Flyers. My allocation sheets have the A/C Flyers 8477-8486 split between Eglinton and Queensway, initially 8477-81 at Eglinton and 8482-86 at Queensway. The whole lot of them went to Lakeshore in June '88 as mentioned, but the old split was restored by September (no intermediate allocation details for the summer break months). Maybe some digging in the history of Gray Coach would explain why this came to be, that is an era of the TTC I have very little knowledge about.

8482-86 went to Birchmount in February 1990 (this was something I failed to notice yesterday), but in March they went back to Queensway (this is probably why I failed to notice). By August 1, 1991, 8477-8486 were all at Eglinton. They remained here until 8482 and 8483 were briefly loaned to Arrow for the June 1995 allocation sheet.

8477-8482 were moved to Queensway in May 1996. All but 8477 went back to Eglinton in March 1998. 8478 rejoined Queensway's ranks in May, and what remained of the batch was consolidated at Queensway in July 1998: that being 8480-8481, 8485-8486 (8477-8479 and 8482-8484 being moved into dead storage at this time). By December 1998, 8480 was the last surviving bus of the batch, and this was retired in 1999.

As for Wilson, their ranks of D901s began to diminish in 1992. In April they had 34: 6000-6014, 6029-6037, 6099-6108. By June, they were down to 28 (6000-6009, 6029-6037, 6100-6108), in early 1993 they got a reprise in the form of 8433-8440, but these were gone by June, leaving them with only 18 (6029-6037 and 6100-6108). At some point between June and October 1995 these were broken up: 6029-6036 and 6100-6102 went to Eglinton, 6037 to Arrow, 6103-6108 to Birchmount. Wilson instead got 6091 from Birchmount, then later in the year 6030, 6035, and 6100 too, but all of these were gone by February 1996 except for 6091. This left in June 1996 for Birchmount. This was the end of Wilson being a continuous Flyer division, but not the last time a Flyer ran out of there: in February 1999 they for some reason (CNG trouble perhaps?) received 6183, 84, 87, 94, 97 and 8391, 8408, 21, 31, 43, 62. All of these were gone by January 2000 (when precisely I can't say, I have nothing from March '99 until January '00), leaving Wilson as an almost entirely GM division except for the CNG Orions. That was the last time a D901 was allocated out of Wilson.

I had no idea 8420 was the Yellow Pages bus, I guess that's one of those things you can't gleam from looking at allocation sheets and you need external context.

All of this is neat to look at from a bus fan's perspective, and I would love to go back to this era of Toronto, but I feel for the maintenance personnel of the era who had to learn how to service so many small batches of unique buses. I have no idea why the TTC did it like this for so long.

  

Since 2016 or so.

Thanks for the info. I remember the yellow pages bus from seeing it in person. Yes its hard to dig through all that, and the fact that info is still around is great. Lots of nostalgia from reading all that info. 

I know when Wilson was going through the CNG issues, some D40-90s and 1991 Orion V were at Wilson as well. I do remember seeing the 1981 Flyers on 139 Huntingwood around that time. 

There was also a short while were it seemed as though Danforth was strictly Flyers just prior to the 7200s being delivered. 

But that was great info. The TTC I miss

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February 19, 1998 was the day that GM #2017 came into service upon completion of its heavy rebuild. From April 2007 until its retirement, it was the oldest bus in the fleet, outlasting the rest of the 2000-2110 rebuild series by several years. 

2017 was built in September 1981 as bus no. 8533. It began life out of the now-defunct Lansdowne division, where it ran until late 1988, when it was sent briefly to Arrow Road. In January 1989 it was reallocated to Wilson, and at some point between then and February 1990 sent to Danforth.
 
In the second half of the summer of 1993 it was transferred back to Lansdowne, where it remained until that garage was closed on February 17, 1996. From February 18, 1996 until March 1997 it ran from Malvern, and was subsequently put into storage. During that time it underwent a heavy overhaul and was renumbered to 2017; it re-entered service on February 19, 1998 out of Birchmount garage. At an unknown date between May and August 2000 it returned to Malvern, where it ran until it moved west to Wilson in the autumn of 2005.
 
In April 2006 it moved further west to Arrow Road garage, and when that division lost all of its remaining GM New looks in late 2006 it returned to Malvern. Finally, in June 2009 it was one of the last New looks to leave Malvern for Mount Dennis garage, where it ran for only a couple of months before retiring in August 2009, a month short of its 28th anniversary. Its final day in service was August 4, 2009 on route 52 Lawrence West and it left Toronto forever on August 24.
 
I caught it on March 16, 2009, on the 95 York Mills. By then, the only inaccessible routes out of Malvern were the 95 and 139, so the options were limited. I never did catch it out of Mount Dennis, but the photos that I did get were sharp, in focus, with the whole bus in the pictures, which is the most reasonable expectation I could possibly have for photos I took from that era.
 
9836591584_2fbb326d47_h.jpg
 
9836622475_1ec34b972d_h.jpg
 

 

 

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  • 2 weeks later...
On 2/19/2022 at 8:08 AM, T3G said:

February 19, 1998 was the day that GM #2017 came into service upon completion of its heavy rebuild. From April 2007 until its retirement, it was the oldest bus in the fleet, outlasting the rest of the 2000-2110 rebuild series by several years. 

2017 was built in September 1981 as bus no. 8533. It began life out of the now-defunct Lansdowne division, where it ran until late 1988, when it was sent briefly to Arrow Road. In January 1989 it was reallocated to Wilson, and at some point between then and February 1990 sent to Danforth.
 
In the second half of the summer of 1993 it was transferred back to Lansdowne, where it remained until that garage was closed on February 17, 1996. From February 18, 1996 until March 1997 it ran from Malvern, and was subsequently put into storage. During that time it underwent a heavy overhaul and was renumbered to 2017; it re-entered service on February 19, 1998 out of Birchmount garage. At an unknown date between May and August 2000 it returned to Malvern, where it ran until it moved west to Wilson in the autumn of 2005.
 
In April 2006 it moved further west to Arrow Road garage, and when that division lost all of its remaining GM New looks in late 2006 it returned to Malvern. Finally, in June 2009 it was one of the last New looks to leave Malvern for Mount Dennis garage, where it ran for only a couple of months before retiring in August 2009, a month short of its 28th anniversary. Its final day in service was August 4, 2009 on route 52 Lawrence West and it left Toronto forever on August 24.
 
I caught it on March 16, 2009, on the 95 York Mills. By then, the only inaccessible routes out of Malvern were the 95 and 139, so the options were limited. I never did catch it out of Mount Dennis, but the photos that I did get were sharp, in focus, with the whole bus in the pictures, which is the most reasonable expectation I could possibly have for photos I took from that era.
 
9836591584_2fbb326d47_h.jpg
 
9836622475_1ec34b972d_h.jpg
 

 

 

Depending on the unit you got, some of them were really slow. Others could get up to a good speed. I wonder if it has more to due with the operator. Hills are always a problem thou. 

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  • 3 weeks later...

The former TTC 1965 TDH-5303 bus #3769 is seen on Commonwealth Ave. in Boston on the M2 LMA Shuttle operated by MASCO. This is one of the examples of TTC buses enjoying their careers after their retirement. Photo taken by Bob Hussey in January 1986.

5B8274FA-FE5E-4CF4-9830-6564713DE71D.jpeg

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  • 1 month later...
8 minutes ago, MCIBUS said:

Only 1 bus? I'm surprised I would of thought they'd have more then that? Like perhaps 3 or 4 different type of buses?

There are also 2345, 2444 and 8058 (GM T6H-5307N) buses.  I don't know the status of the buses because when I visited outside TTC Hillcrest a month ago, there were no GM buses parked outside.  Only NG hybrid buses were parked there.  Back in late 2018 to sometime mid 2019, TTC saved 7575, a 2004 Orion VII but due to cost of restoration, it was scrapped.   

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6 hours ago, TTCNLFBT said:

There are also 2345, 2444 and 8058 (GM T6H-5307N) buses.  I don't know the status of the buses because when I visited outside TTC Hillcrest a month ago, there were no GM buses parked outside.  Only NG hybrid buses were parked there.  Back in late 2018 to sometime mid 2019, TTC saved 7575, a 2004 Orion VII but due to cost of restoration, it was scrapped.   

2345 and 2444 were parts buses only. It is unclear what is going on with 8058 which was currently undergoing restoration.

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It would be cool if the TTC moves GM New Look 2252 to Birchmount division.  Why?  Because back then, 8752 was based there when she was brand new.

Or New Eglinton Garage.  Why? Because It's closer to my home!

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13 hours ago, MCIBUS said:

Only 1 bus? I'm surprised I would of thought they'd have more then that? Like perhaps 3 or 4 different type of buses?

Toronto is not known for excessively valuing its heritage. That we have 2252 in presentable condition is something of a miracle in itself.

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16 hours ago, G.A said:

2345 and 2444 were parts buses only. It is unclear what is going on with 8058 which was currently undergoing restoration.

It’s inside Harvey. That’s good enough.

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3 hours ago, TTCNLFBT said:

In my opinion, TTC should have choose to do a 8058 replica on one of the buses instead of rebuilding the actual bus because of the financial problems and COVID-19.  Now, TTC will pay the price in rebuilding 8058 once the bills come in...  Like I said before:  In my opinion.  

They started the rebuild of 8058 before Covid hit, though (and if memory serves we have not been updated on its status since the outbreak), so how is that relevant?

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The only way COVID factored into 8058's fate at all is that the shutdowns severely impacted the economy, so there was much less money to go around. Your assertion that they haven't "declared it safe to resume activities" (a dubious statement, given that the rules are next to non existent in most of the northern hemisphere by this point) really has nothing to do with the bus rebuild at all, things would be equally safe or unsafe if there was a replica being done instead.

As a staunch preservationist I am not at a fan of the replica idea unless all other avenues have been exhausted. When the bus initially returned from Halton County it was said that the bus' body may be too far gone to save, so it is entirely possible that there are further unwelcome surprises in the pipeline, in which case the creation of the replica would indeed be the best possible solution. However, given the advanced state of parts harvesting from 2345 and 2444, and the fact that they have been sitting outside with no protection against the elements for the bulk of the past decade, I suspect that the costs of fixing any unit back up would be significant either way. If the possibility exists, however, that we may actually have a proper historic vehicle rather than a replica of one, I would much rather wait longer for that to happen.

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