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1 hour ago, Orion VI said:

Yeah, pre 9/11, pre WTC bombing, even pre Oklahoma City bombing. Not to mention transit involved ones like 7/7 in London. I meant to ask if it was allowed then, not now.

Possibly most importantly in the Toronto context, pre subway crash.  That moment marked a sea change in attitude at the TTC.


Was it officially allowed?  Not really, trespassing has always been a no-no but if they asked and someone said yes in each of those locations, or got it all pre-arranged, then sure.

What I was getting at was back then, things were a lot - a lot - more relaxed and it was a lot easier to get that yes compared to now, and if they just went ahead and did it anyways, the reaction, if there was one, to it would’ve been much less strong than what would happen now.

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3 hours ago, Wayside Observer said:

Possibly most importantly in the Toronto context, pre subway crash.  That moment marked a sea change in attitude at the TTC.


Was it officially allowed?  Not really, trespassing has always been a no-no but if they asked and someone said yes in each of those locations, or got it all pre-arranged, then sure.

What I was getting at was back then, things were a lot - a lot - more relaxed and it was a lot easier to get that yes compared to now, and if they just went ahead and did it anyways, the reaction, if there was one, to it would’ve been much less strong than what would happen now.

I know a year or two ago, Rapido brought their fishbowl to Hillcrest.

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Transit Toronto captions a picture they have of the excursion as a "charter, right after the bus's retirement". I can't see how that is accurate, as the bus has a different plate than it's TTC one, and the video outlines it being driven into the US... (Although that would explain the ability to drive on TTC property, but the person driving it in the picture is different to the one driving it in the video)

Here's the photo in question: Transit Toronto Image: TTC 7523 19920418

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10 hours ago, Orion VI said:

Transit Toronto captions a picture they have of the excursion as a "charter, right after the bus's retirement". I can't see how that is accurate, as the bus has a different plate than it's TTC one, and the video outlines it being driven into the US... (Although that would explain the ability to drive on TTC property, but the person driving it in the picture is different to the one driving it in the video)

Here's the photo in question: Transit Toronto Image: TTC 7523 19920418

Off topic somewhat,  but does anyone know the reason as to why the TTC didn't buy GMC RTS 04s and/or Flexible 870/Metros back in the day?

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1 hour ago, Chris.A said:

Off topic somewhat,  but does anyone know the reason as to why the TTC didn't buy GMC RTS 04s and/or Flexible 870/Metros back in the day?

They weren’t built in Canada for starters…

Also, why have two duplicate parts inventories for GM buses, especially when the RTS reliability record was spotty at best.

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On 10/11/2021 at 10:09 PM, Bus_Medic said:

They weren’t built in Canada for starters…

Also, why have two duplicate parts inventories for GM buses, especially when the RTS reliability record was spotty at best.

What? The RTS bus was a well beloved all American Advanced Designed transit bus when it first debuted back in the late 1970s. The 01's and 03's might have had issues, but the 04's were a very solid product.

Canada couldn't buy American buses?

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4 hours ago, Chris.A said:

What? The RTS bus was a well beloved all American Advanced Designed transit bus when it first debuted back in the late 1970s. The 01's and 03's might have had issues, but the 04's were a very solid product.

Canada couldn't buy American buses?

There have been minimum levels of Canadian and Ontario manufacturing content in transit purchases to support the local manufacturing base in order to qualify for funding from the senior levels of government.  It's not too dissimilar from the various "Buy American" policies you see south of the border.  Even going back as far as the PCC cars, only the body shells were imported.  Pretty much everything else made here including the final assembly at the Can-Car Turcot yard and the batch that were done in Thunder Bay.

The only time I can think of that the TTC bought new 100% imported revenue vehicles would've been the Gloucesters.  Used equipment is a different story though.  The did pick up some used buses at various times, used trolley coaches, and a ton of used PCC cars, but by virtue of buying on the used market, they had to pick them up where they came up when they came up.

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20 minutes ago, Wayside Observer said:

There have been minimum levels of Canadian and Ontario manufacturing content in transit purchases to support the local manufacturing base in order to qualify for funding from the senior levels of government.  It's not too dissimilar from the various "Buy American" policies you see south of the border.  Even going back as far as the PCC cars, only the body shells were imported.  Pretty much everything else made here including the final assembly at the Can-Car Turcot yard and the batch that were done in Thunder Bay.

The only time I can think of that the TTC bought new 100% imported revenue vehicles would've been the Gloucesters.  Used equipment is a different story though.  The did pick up some used buses at various times, used trolley coaches, and a ton of used PCC cars, but by virtue of buying on the used market, they had to pick them up where they came up when they came up.

So I assume that is why Canada don't seem to have Gilligs?

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5 hours ago, Chris.A said:

What? The RTS bus was a well beloved all American Advanced Designed transit bus when it first debuted back in the late 1970s. The 01's and 03's might have had issues, but the 04's were a very solid product.

Canada couldn't buy American buses?

Word is, many Canadian transit agencies didn't take much to the radical RTS design, so GM introduced what was basically an upgraded version of the NewLook, the Classic, for the Canadian market (some US buyers purchased them too). And even then, a few agencies opted to continue buying NewLooks as late as 1986.

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8 hours ago, Chris.A said:

What? The RTS bus was a well beloved all American Advanced Designed transit bus when it first debuted back in the late 1970s. The 01's and 03's might have had issues, but the 04's were a very solid product.

Canada couldn't buy American buses?

Don’t ask the question if you don’t like the answer.

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  • 2 weeks later...

October 23, 2011: Classics 6221 and 6223 photographed in the deadline at Mount Dennis in the presence of some other GM buses.

This was one of the most interesting catches I grabbed in my early days of taking photos, as I'd been hoping for a chance to get 6221 with its GM plate since 2008.

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I cannot believe it's been 10 years since then 🤢

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5 hours ago, PCC Guy said:

October 23, 2011: Classics 6221 and 6223 photographed in the deadline at Mount Dennis in the presence of some other GM buses.

This was one of the most interesting catches I grabbed in my early days of taking photos, as I'd been hoping for a chance to get 6221 with its GM plate since 2008.

....

I cannot believe it's been 10 years since then 🤢

About time for them to move to Queensway, then?

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  • 5 weeks later...
  • 4 weeks later...
On 12/16/2021 at 11:22 AM, Tom1122 said:

Almost hard to believe it's now been 10 years since the end of fishbowl service in Toronto.

On 12/16/2021 at 1:35 PM, Bus_Medic said:

No kidding.

she was still a foetus.

Same with my elder daughter.  Now she has a younger sister and brother to play with and love.

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  • 1 month later...

2280 lives. She in in storage in a lot in Ontario together with the old Infobus. Apparently they are both owned by the Transport Enthusiasts Club of Ireland, who will eventually import the buses as parts for 2290 and 2291.

Quick history lesson:

2280 was built in September 1982 as no. 8780, beginning life out of Davenport division. In the spring or summer of 1991 it was moved to the old Eglinton garage, where it remained until transferring to Wilson in the summer or autumn of 1995. In late 1996 it was moved to Arrow Road, where, at the end of its natural lifespan, it underwent a heavy rebuild in 2000-2001 and was renumbered to 2280.

At the end of its life it made its way to Scarborough, as all proper buses do. In autumn 2004 it was moved briefly to Birchmount division before joining Malvern garage in the summer of 2005. It was stored in August 2008, but reactivated in March 2009 on completion of the life extension program, and moved to Mount Dennis garage in May 2009. It was parked in June 2011 and subsequently retired.

 image.thumb.png.0d8a848679c9a09a91d7c17533720cad.png

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14 hours ago, T3G said:

2280 lives. She in in storage in a lot in Ontario together with the old Infobus. Apparently they are both owned by the Transport Enthusiasts Club of Ireland, who will eventually import the buses as parts for 2290 and 2291.

Quick history lesson:

2280 was built in September 1982 as no. 8780, beginning life out of Davenport division. In the spring or summer of 1991 it was moved to the old Eglinton garage, where it remained until transferring to Wilson in the summer or autumn of 1995. In late 1996 it was moved to Arrow Road, where, at the end of its natural lifespan, it underwent a heavy rebuild in 2000-2001 and was renumbered to 2280.

At the end of its life it made its way to Scarborough, as all proper buses do. In autumn 2004 it was moved briefly to Birchmount division before joining Malvern garage in the summer of 2005. It was stored in August 2008, but reactivated in March 2009 on completion of the life extension program, and moved to Mount Dennis garage in May 2009. It was parked in June 2011 and subsequently retired.

 image.thumb.png.0d8a848679c9a09a91d7c17533720cad.png

Love the movement history with year and what division. Do you only have it for the GMs. Do you have a break down of the 1981 and 1985-86 Flyers? 

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9 hours ago, FlyerD901 said:

Love the movement history with year and what division. Do you only have it for the GMs. Do you have a break down of the 1981 and 1985-86 Flyers? 

I will try my best to do an abridged history, as the history of any given bus fleet can be quite long and if I tried to account for every single bus that ever changed divisions the post would be too long. Though I tried to account for every notable movement (i.e. an order being introduced to a division for a first time), I may have glossed over some data every now and then so just bear that in mind. If you have a specific unit you have in mind I can do a more granular allocation history for it, just let me know.

The 1981 Flyers were initially divided up between Queensway (8380-8414 and 8482-8486), Eglinton (8450-8481,) and Wilson (8415-8449). In 1983 Eglinton was noted as having received 8414, while 8456 was traded to Queensway.

The 1985s were divided between Wilson (6000-6021), Queensway (6022-6047), Eglinton (6048-6072), Malvern (6073-6085, 6098-6109), and Birchmount (6086-6097 and 6110-6122).

The 1986s went to Wilson (6130-6149), Eglinton (6150-59), Birchmount (6160-6174), Queensway (6175-6189), and Malvern (6190-6204). 6185-6189 were sent to Malvern by June 1988.

Lakeshore acquired 8477-8486 by June 1988, but this seems to have been a temporary thing as the September 1988 allocation sheet has it back to being an all MCI garage again.

Malvern sustained big losses later that year - by December 1988 it was down to 7 Flyers, 6109, 6199, and 6200-6204. By this time Danforth had acquired 8414 and 8467-8476, while Arrow Road received: 6015-6028, 6072-6085, 6098, 6130-6159, 6185-6198, 8395-8399, 8400-8413, 8433-8449, 8456. Eglinton retained 6048-6071 and 8450-8455, 8457-8466, 8477-8481 and Wilson was left with 6000-6014, 6099-6108, and 8415-8432. Queensway had 6029-6047, 6175-6184, 8380-8394 and 8482-8486. No change for Birchmount.

Malvern had two pre-1985 Flyers in February 1990, 8393 and 8394, but this may have been a temporary movement to help with a vehicle shortage as they were not there by April (back to Queensway). At this point, 6185-6189 and 8414 went to Eglinton and Birchmount was enriched by the arrival of 6098. Wilson also acquired 8467-8476. All of these save for 8476 were returned to Danforth by November (Danforth receiving 8466 instead).

In 1991 Eglinton lost 6061-6071 to Lansdowne. Wilson gained 6029-6037 and 8409-8413.

In November 1991, the split was as follows:

  • 6109, 6199-6204 at Malvern (7),
  • 8429-8432 and 8466-8476 at Danforth (15),
  • 6086-6098, 6110-6122, 6160-6174 at Birchmount (41),
  • 6048-6060, 6185-6189, 8414, 8450-8455, 8457-8465, 8477-8486 at Eglinton (44),
  • 6061-6071 at Lansdowne (10),
  • 6038-6047, 6175-6184, and 8380-8394 at Queensway (35),
  • 6015-6028,6072-6085, 6130-6159, 6190-6198, 8395-8399, 8400-8408, 8415-8428, 8433-8449, 8456 at Arrow (113),
  • 6000-6014, 6029-6037, 6099-6108, 8409-8413 at Wilson (39).

8409-8413 and 8420 were moved to Eglinton in January 1992, robbing Wilson of their 1981s. 8380-8381 went from Queensway to Lansdowne.

In April 1992, 8395-8419, 8421-8422 joined Queensway. A single D901, 8420, was at Davenport. 6010-6014, 6099, 8382-8384 graced Danforth with their presence in June 1992. The lone weirdo from Davenport, 8420, was sent to Lansdowne in July.

In December 1992, Malvern had 6195-6204. 6008-6009, 8385-8392 went to Danforth, 8420 returned for some inexplicable reason to Davenport, then to Danforth in January 1993. This was also the first big reshuffling for Birchmount, in January 1993 they were left with 6086-6098, 6109-6122, and 6168-6174. 6000-6007 and 6160-6164 went to Arrow Road and 6165-6167 went to Eglinton. 8433-8440 went to Wilson, but by June 1993 they had been reassigned again, with 8434-8440 going to Danforth and 8433 to Queensway.

In June '93 8420 was at Lansdowne again. In July 1993 Birchmount lost 6171-6174, which went to Lansdowne together with 6175-6177 from Queensway. In September, 6168-6170 went from Birchmount to Lansdowne, and 6202-6204 went from Malvern to Lansdowne. In January 1994, 8420 was finally at Queensway.

Birchmount gained additional equipment by May 1994, getting 6005, 6079-6080, and 6155. 8433 was at Arrow in July 1994.

This seems like a reasonable place to stop for now as I have work and frankly my eyes are getting a little strained from all the numbers, but when I have the free time to do so I will pick this up and continue tracing the allocation history of these buses. To break up the gargantuan wall of text, here are my photos of the only D901 I ever photographed, 6104. :)

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