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found this in the metro and the star:

Siemens steps up lobby for TTC contract

Says it would create plant in Ontario to build subway cars

Vote set for this week on Bombardier's `sole-source' bid

Aug. 28, 2006. 01:00 AM

KEVIN MCGRAN

TRANSPORTATION REPORTER

Siemens says it would create a train assembly plant in Ontario if it managed to wrestle the controversial "sole-sourcing" contract to build 234 TTC subway cars away from Quebec-based rival Bombardier.

"We're still very interested in this project," said Mario Péloquin, manager of business development for Siemens Canada. "We were looking at maximizing the amount of work we could do in this province because those would be new jobs.

"We would do final assembly in Ontario. We would open a facility here, we would contribute to the economy here and we would create some jobs."

That Bombardier would create and preserve jobs in Ontario was the key point Mayor David Miller and TTC chairman Howard Moscoe made while drumming up support for the controversial decision not to tender the $710 million contract.

A Bombardier report suggested the five-year TTC contract would create an average of about 500 jobs a year in Ontario, both directly with the company, and indirectly with suppliers. It would peak at 720 jobs in the third year of the contract.

Péloquin said he didn't know how many jobs his contract would create, but hinted Ontario could be a permanent base for its North American market because "once we're here, we're here." Siemens is based in Germany.

The TTC, however, is not interested in hearing from Siemens, said Péloquin. Instead, a vote on the Bombardier deal is set for Wednesday with five of the eight commissioners already having declared their support.Two independent consultants concluded the Bombardier offer was a fair deal, in line with recent train purchases in New York City and Chicago.

Bombardier's bid calls for the subway cars to be built for $499.4 million, but comes with $110 million in extras.

Siemens told the TTC it could build the same number of cars for $535 million, but added those come with many of the "extras" Bombardier put outside its bottom-line price.

"It's a complete vehicle with all the technologies I think the TTC could possibly want," said Péloquin. "This is the complete package.

"We don't have an allowance for contracting and contingency. We've accounted for some changes to make it fit on the track, because their gauge is different."

A Bombardier official said Siemens' offer was not to be taken seriously.

"Of course they have not seen the specification; it's easy for them to mention a price when you don't even know specifications," said Helene V. Gagnon, senior director of public affairs for Bombardier Transportation.

"We've seen now with two independent experts looking at our proposal, comparing it using various methods, they came to same conclusion that our price is reasonable and competitive.

"We believe we're providing value for money. The cars we are going to provide are going to cost less than the T1 cars we sold in 1992. They will have added features for security, and rider comfort, yet cheaper than what they were in '92."

Péloquin said he received no feedback after he submitted Siemens' unsolicited offer to the TTC in March. He said he takes issue with the notion that going to public tender would raise costs.

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Hey, they can open the plant up here in Windsor. We have too many people and not enough jobs. We can sure use a backup to the automotive jobs. That would be ironic though. Automotive capital of Canada opens transit assembly plant!

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Péloquin said he received no feedback after he submitted Siemens' unsolicited offer to the TTC in March. He said he takes issue with the notion that going to public tender would raise costs.

Why would a public tender create higher costs?

If siemens were to build a plant...where could they do it? Would they most likely take over a plan which has closed which had a simular facility? Or would they be building it from the ground? I ask this since building it from the ground may result in delays with production.

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If siemens were to build a plant...where could they do it? Would they most likely take over a plan which has closed which had a simular facility? Or would they be building it from the ground? I ask this since building it from the ground may result in delays with production.

Well, they could build it in the Kitchener, Waterloo and Cambridge area :P . I say this because there is a lot of empty warehouses there. :(

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found this in the metro and the star:

Siemens steps up lobby for TTC contract

Says it would create plant in Ontario to build subway cars

Vote set for this week on Bombardier's `sole-source' bid

Aug. 28, 2006. 01:00 AM

KEVIN MCGRAN

TRANSPORTATION REPORTER

Siemens says it would create a train assembly plant in Ontario if it managed to wrestle the controversial "sole-sourcing" contract to build 234 TTC subway cars away from Quebec-based rival Bombardier.

"We're still very interested in this project," said Mario Péloquin, manager of business development for Siemens Canada. "We were looking at maximizing the amount of work we could do in this province because those would be new jobs.

"We would do final assembly in Ontario. We would open a facility here, we would contribute to the economy here and we would create some jobs."

That Bombardier would create and preserve jobs in Ontario was the key point Mayor David Miller and TTC chairman Howard Moscoe made while drumming up support for the controversial decision not to tender the $710 million contract.

A Bombardier report suggested the five-year TTC contract would create an average of about 500 jobs a year in Ontario, both directly with the company, and indirectly with suppliers. It would peak at 720 jobs in the third year of the contract.

Péloquin said he didn't know how many jobs his contract would create, but hinted Ontario could be a permanent base for its North American market because "once we're here, we're here." Siemens is based in Germany.

The TTC, however, is not interested in hearing from Siemens, said Péloquin. Instead, a vote on the Bombardier deal is set for Wednesday with five of the eight commissioners already having declared their support.Two independent consultants concluded the Bombardier offer was a fair deal, in line with recent train purchases in New York City and Chicago.

Bombardier's bid calls for the subway cars to be built for $499.4 million, but comes with $110 million in extras.

Siemens told the TTC it could build the same number of cars for $535 million, but added those come with many of the "extras" Bombardier put outside its bottom-line price.

"It's a complete vehicle with all the technologies I think the TTC could possibly want," said Péloquin. "This is the complete package.

"We don't have an allowance for contracting and contingency. We've accounted for some changes to make it fit on the track, because their gauge is different."

A Bombardier official said Siemens' offer was not to be taken seriously.

"Of course they have not seen the specification; it's easy for them to mention a price when you don't even know specifications," said Helene V. Gagnon, senior director of public affairs for Bombardier Transportation.

"We've seen now with two independent experts looking at our proposal, comparing it using various methods, they came to same conclusion that our price is reasonable and competitive.

"We believe we're providing value for money. The cars we are going to provide are going to cost less than the T1 cars we sold in 1992. They will have added features for security, and rider comfort, yet cheaper than what they were in '92."

Péloquin said he received no feedback after he submitted Siemens' unsolicited offer to the TTC in March. He said he takes issue with the notion that going to public tender would raise costs.

I say we should stick with Bombardier since they have a reasonable price and we already have Bombardier technology running on our system!

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The funny thing is that the TTC Has a specific track guage, which is different from everyone else. So the facility would have to be built catering to that as well as standard track guages...and have test tracks for both.

All of which bombardier already has.

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If they really wanted to stick it to Bombardier they can buy the old UTDC (now Bombardier) facility west of Kingston, which is now mothballed.

Plus the experienced workers are here and the infrastrucutre.

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I personally don't really care who gets the contract, as long as the new subway cars come.

i have to agree with you! :(, i don't really care who builds them, but as long as they are built and delievered on time

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First off, BBD's Thunder Bay plant isn't really specifically built to one particular gauge....all of the tracks in the assembly buildings are built slightly narrower than TTC's gauge, so that TTC equipment can run on them, as well as standard-gauged equipment (on the outer parts of the running surfaces of the wheels).

Second, I think it's highly unlikely the Siemens would build a plant in Ontario. What's more likely is that they'd either rent space in an existing plant (such as BBD's Millhaven facility) or get a local manufacturering partner who would do the final assembly in Ontario to make them qualify as "built in Ontario", which is what is done for the most part in New York State.

Dan

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http://www.toronto.ca/ttc/new_subway_train...ntroduction.htm

There's some Bombardier Contract info that was added to that page today.

Interesting, the TTC wants to order 10 subway cars in 2018.

Hmm that's odd, 10 cars would only make one 6 car train and one 4 car train!

I wonder if these train will be test trains for something, like a completely automated train!

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Does 1 subway car in that equal one full artic set, or a T1-ish style vehicle?

I'm thinking T1-ish styale since they said cars instead of train or Train set.

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Hmm that's odd, 10 cars would only make one 6 car train and one 4 car train!

I wonder if these train will be test trains for something, like a completely automated train!

one 4 car train for shephard yonge subway line? The other one for the YU line.

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That that means is that the TTC will need another 10 cars to meet expected service by then. It DOES NOT mean that they will order just 10 cars. What they will do is order at least another 10 cars (and possibly more) on top of whatever order they already have at the time.

Dan

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Damn Pigs at the TTC....

You complain that you have no money and then refuse to see if there's anybody that can build your subway cars (the one's you can't afford) cheaper than Bombardier.

You commies then wonder why we won't give the TTC money....

CorSter

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I was watching The Mayor on CP24 earlier today and the Mayor said Bombardier was chosen because it is the only Canadian train company. He said that when Bombardier bought the other companys in Ontario the Government made a deal to buy from the or something like that. He also said that if a transit agency wants to buy some vehicles then the company has to have a plant in that country or somthing like that because it helps the country or something along the lines of that. He used Orion and New York as an example. He said when Orion won a bid in New York they had to build a plant in New York State. Lastly, he said that Siemens said they would build a plant here but it would take to long so the chose Bombardier.

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Doesn't mean the public tender process should be dumped. If Siemens can provide a cheaper price with a similar delivery timeline, they should go with them.

I have a funny feeling 10 years from now, this will be another "MFP Computer Leasing Scandal". Lets hope that City Council gets sense knocked into them and votes down approval.

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Doesn't mean the public tender process should be dumped. If Siemens can provide a cheaper price with a similar delivery timeline, they should go with them.

I have a funny feeling 10 years from now, this will be another "MFP Computer Leasing Scandal".

cheaper price is one of the important factor to consider. You have to consider the quality of the vehicle. Also I have a feeling that the new subway will uses parts that T1 is currently using right now.

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cheaper price is one of the important factor to consider. You have to consider the quality of the vehicle. Also I have a feeling that the new subway will uses parts that T1 is currently using right now.

Bombardier isn't the only company that can make subway cars :P

Siemens is quality. Probably better than Bombardier.

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