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Yup, it looks like I could put my fist through it. cheap plastic won't hold up well in everyday use.

In fairness, it is quite easy with paints to make metal look like plastic. And what may look like "cheap plastic" may in fact be thermoplastic or FRP, both of which are what modern interior automotive, truck and bus panels are made of.

Just because they sold well in other parts of the world doesn't make them suitable for our climate and operating conditions. Like I said, I will wait and see what NFI comes up with, I'm not expecting to be impressed though.

Absolutely. The fact of the matter is that European equipment is simply not designed to be as robust as North American designs, simply because it doesn't have to be. European buses very seldom last longer than 7 years. A "light duty" bus (as designated by the FTA and APTA) has to last at least 7 years to meet the requirements for Federal funding, and that is in arguably tougher conditions.

Dan

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Not sure what your point is. Orion buses (aside from Orion III and VI) did last 18 years.

Keep in mind that OC Transpo's Orion III artics were in service from 1985 to 2003, a span of eighteen years. The Ikarus-built bodies were only designed to last about seven years, and OC's mechanics did a wonderful job of keeping the buses on the road, even if the only parts available in the last few years were chewing gum and binder twine... :P

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In fairness, it is quite easy with paints to make metal look like plastic. And what may look like "cheap plastic" may in fact be thermoplastic or FRP, both of which are what modern interior automotive, truck and bus panels are made of. Absolutely. The fact of the matter is that European equipment is simply not designed to be as robust as North American designs, simply because it doesn't have to be. European buses very seldom last longer than 7 years. A "light duty" bus (as designated by the FTA and APTA) has to last at least 7 years to meet the requirements for Federal funding, and that is in arguably tougher conditions. Dan
Most British made buses can run for 18+ years "easily", Dennis Darts in Britain and Hong Kong runs for 15+ years without any doubt...........if you were going back to the "golden ages" of the British Bus industries where those AEC Routemasters can run for 50+ years like Fishbowls without any problem and they run well in any part of the world, so...........

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Most British made buses can run for 18+ years "easily", Dennis Darts in Britain and Hong Kong runs for 15+ years without any doubt...........if you were going back to the "golden ages" of the British Bus industries where those AEC Routemasters can run for 50+ years like Fishbowls without any problem and they run well in any part of the world, so...........

You can not compare a bus in the care of a group of dedicated volunteers or a museum to a vehicle that is being used 12 to 18 hours each and every day.

As for the New Looks, sure they might have ran for 30 years here - but they required immense amounts of work over the years, and that is despite their design flaws.

Dan

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Keep in mind that OC Transpo's Orion III artics were in service from 1985 to 2003, a span of eighteen years. The Ikarus-built bodies were only designed to last about seven years, and OC's mechanics did a wonderful job of keeping the buses on the road, even if the only parts available in the last few years were chewing gum and binder twine... :P

OC mechanics didn't do any body work, they have to send to National Refurbishing to do major work. This of course, OC had an early corrosion before TTC went screaming on not telling why!

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European buses very seldom last longer than 7 years.

I don't mean to come across as rude but that statement is absolutely incorrect. I'm not sure what facts you are using to reach that conclusion?

Ever been to London (UK, not Ontario)? There are plenty of buses that are running that are more than 7 years old. I know of Dennis Darts that have just left London service that are 13 and 14 years old and we all know how punishing busy major cities can be on vehicles. Likewise in Europe. Visit Germany and France and there are plenty of vehicles that are still running that more than seven years old.

You can not compare a bus in the care of a group of dedicated volunteers or a museum to a vehicle that is being used 12 to 18 hours each and every day.

Yes you can. The AEC Routemaster quoted by Cimon8000 was introduced in 1956 and was withdrawn in 2005 - that is a service life of 49 years. These buses were in regular service on busy central London routes all day long being run by commercial bus companies - not historical museums or volunteers.

Granted they weren't on original engines or transmissions, but I doubt any vehicle would!

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I don't mean to come across as rude but that statement is absolutely incorrect. I'm not sure what facts you are using to reach that conclusion? Ever been to London (UK, not Ontario)? There are plenty of buses that are running that are more than 7 years old. I know of Dennis Darts that have just left London service that are 13 and 14 years old and we all know how punishing busy major cities can be on vehicles. Likewise in Europe. Visit Germany and France and there are plenty of vehicles that are still running that more than seven years old. Yes you can. The AEC Routemaster quoted by Cimon8000 was introduced in 1956 and was withdrawn in 2005 - that is a service life of 49 years. These buses were in regular service on busy central London routes all day long being run by commercial bus companies - not historical museums or volunteers. Granted they weren't on original engines or transmissions, but I doubt any vehicle would!
totally agree..........the last Routemaster was withdrawl from "passenger" service in 2005 and there are still a large amount of them being used as sightseeing/tour bus around the world today............ can an Orion VI "run" after 50 years? don't make me ROFLMFAO.....

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New Flyer CEO was on a conference call today. Regarding the midi buses with Alexander Dennis, he said they will cost 250 to 300 thousand each vs. 350 to 400 thousand for a heavy duty bus.

NFI plans to market the midi bus to customers who may now be buying heavy duty but don't need it, and also it will be marketed to the high end of the cutaway bus market. Maybe half of the sales are expected to be to private entities rather than transit agencies.

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totally agree..........the last Routemaster was withdrawl from "passenger" service in 2005 and there are still a large amount of them being used as sightseeing/tour bus around the world today............ can an Orion VI "run" after 50 years? don't make me ROFLMFAO.....

If there was enough popular appeal, absolutely.

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totally agree..........the last Routemaster was withdrawl from "passenger" service in 2005 and there are still a large amount of them being used as sightseeing/tour bus around the world today............ can an Orion VI "run" after 50 years? don't make me ROFLMFAO.....

yeah but our fishbowls that remained in service uptill dec wernt 1959 models they were 1982-3s id imagine the same was true for the routemasters (though im not sure,im just assuming)

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yeah but our fishbowls that remained in service uptill dec wernt 1959 models they were 1982-3s id imagine the same was true for the routemasters (though im not sure,im just assuming)

Only because they needed them and stretched their lives out. If not for that they'd retire much earlier.

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Routemaster production was from 1958 to 1968.

Interesting to hear that the price will be about 1/3 cheaper than for a heavy duty bus. It will be really interesting to see how this venture pans out.

I was reading a trade magazine and was surprised how many Dart/Thomas SLF were sold in NA. I thought it was in the very low hundreds (if that) but in fact they sold 600+, far more than I would ever have thought. ADL will have 440 double deckers running in NA by the end of this year.

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I was reading a trade magazine and was surprised how many Dart/Thomas SLF were sold in NA. I thought it was in the very low hundreds (if that) but in fact they sold 600+, far more than I would ever have thought. ADL will have 440 double deckers running in NA by the end of this year.

Where will those double deckers be? I look forward to seeing one of those.

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Where will those double deckers be? I look forward to seeing one of those.

well Ottawa is getting 75 for a start.

I assume that figure includes all the open top sightseeing buses and includes Tridents as well as Enviro 400's and 500's.

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Where will those double deckers be? I look forward to seeing one of those.

GO has a few, though I'm not sure if that means new DD's or 440 in total.

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I don't mean to come across as rude but that statement is absolutely incorrect. I'm not sure what facts you are using to reach that conclusion?

Ever been to London (UK, not Ontario)? There are plenty of buses that are running that are more than 7 years old. I know of Dennis Darts that have just left London service that are 13 and 14 years old and we all know how punishing busy major cities can be on vehicles. Likewise in Europe. Visit Germany and France and there are plenty of vehicles that are still running that more than seven years old.

Simple. In much of mainland Europe, most major transit properties retire buses at or around 7 years of age. To see vehicles older than 7 years is usually quite rare. This is certainly the case in Paris, and along the Mediterranean.

I don't know why this might be different in London. Perhaps they have chosen to follow the North American examples of funding their transit agencies.

Yes you can. The AEC Routemaster quoted by Cimon8000 was introduced in 1956 and was withdrawn in 2005 - that is a service life of 49 years. These buses were in regular service on busy central London routes all day long being run by commercial bus companies - not historical museums or volunteers.

Granted they weren't on original engines or transmissions, but I doubt any vehicle would!

Are we talking buses that were built in 1956 and running until 2005? In large quantities, or only selected numbers of vehicles? System-wide, or in little enclaves? To make a blanket statement as such is almost useless without more detail explaining it.

Dan

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GO has a few, though I'm not sure if that means new DD's or 440 in total.

There's none at this point, next year you'll see it!

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Simple. In much of mainland Europe, most major transit properties retire buses at or around 7 years of age. To see vehicles older than 7 years is usually quite rare. This is certainly the case in Paris, and along the Mediterranean.

I don't know why this might be different in London. Perhaps they have chosen to follow the North American examples of funding their transit agencies.

Are we talking buses that were built in 1956 and running until 2005? In large quantities, or only selected numbers of vehicles? System-wide, or in little enclaves? To make a blanket statement as such is almost useless without more detail explaining it.

Dan

WHICH European cities you are talking about with bus life span of 7 years? Please be more specific, Ikarus of Hungary(still Europe!!!!) probably yes................

As far as I know, the 7 years life span wouldn't include any bus made in Britain(Optare/Alexander Dennis etc......), Mercedes/Man(Neoplan) of Germany, Volvo of Sweden etc........

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I thought this conversation was about mini or midi buses, not full sized heavy duty buses or europian buses in general. Back on topic!

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Where will those double deckers be? I look forward to seeing one of those.

http://cptdb.ca/wiki...ennis_Enviro500

http://cptdb.ca/wiki...nnis_Enviro500H

http://cptdb.ca/wiki/index.php?title=Alexander_Dennis_Enviro400

GO has a few, though I'm not sure if that means new DD's or 440 in total.

Total. (All ready inservice, being built and ordered)

Routemaster production was from 1958 to 1968.

Interesting to hear that the price will be about 1/3 cheaper than for a heavy duty bus. It will be really interesting to see how this venture pans out.

I was reading a trade magazine and was surprised how many Dart/Thomas SLF were sold in NA. I thought it was in the very low hundreds (if that) but in fact they sold 600+, far more than I would ever have thought. ADL will have 440 double deckers running in NA by the end of this year.

http://cptdb.ca/wiki/index.php?title=SLF

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Simple. In much of mainland Europe, most major transit properties retire buses at or around 7 years of age. To see vehicles older than 7 years is usually quite rare. This is certainly the case in Paris, and along the Mediterranean.

I don't know why this might be different in London. Perhaps they have chosen to follow the North American examples of funding their transit agencies.

Are we talking buses that were built in 1956 and running until 2005? In large quantities, or only selected numbers of vehicles? System-wide, or in little enclaves? To make a blanket statement as such is almost useless without more detail explaining it.

Dan

I currently live in mainland Europe and travel a lot and I can assure you that it it far from unusual to see buses that are more than 7 years old in service, in fact it is the norm...........I have no idea where you get your information from but it is incorrect. A standard European citybus will have a lifespan of anywhere between 12-20 years depending on the type of vehicle and operating enviroment.

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I currently live in mainland Europe and travel a lot and I can assure you that it it far from unusual to see buses that are more than 7 years old in service, in fact it is the norm...........I have no idea where you get your information from but it is incorrect. A standard European citybus will have a lifespan of anywhere between 12-20 years depending on the type of vehicle and operating enviroment.

I agree.

Are we talking buses that were built in 1956 and running until 2005? In large quantities, or only selected numbers of vehicles? System-wide, or in little enclaves?

There is plenty to read about on the net about Routemasters so I will keep my answers brief.

Yes, the very buses built from 1958 to 1968. Only batch every made and some of those were operating all the way up to 2005. A handful are still operating today but on city centre Heritage routes.

http://en.wikipedia...._%28Heritage%29

http://en.wikipedia...._%28Heritage%29

Fairly large quantities considering their age. System wide (see below WIki article)

The Routemaster wikipedia page is a good initial place to start if you want answers to some of your questions - you can even check out some of the routes they operated on. There are also several good publications available. Check out "Ian Allan Publishing" and search for "Routemaster".

http://en.wikipedia....iki/Routemaster

To make a blanket statement as such is almost useless without more detail explaining it.

As for blanket statements, "European buses very seldom last seven years" takes some beating. LOL.

I assume that figure includes all the open top sightseeing buses and includes Tridents as well as Enviro 400's and 500's.

I think you are correct. The magazine did not mention a time frame, but I interpreted the 440 figure in the same way as you did i.e. including the Tridents. Still shocked at the Thomas/Dart sales figures though. I would never have guessed in a million years that they sold so many.

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I currently live in mainland Europe and travel a lot and I can assure you that it it far from unusual to see buses that are more than 7 years old in service, in fact it is the norm...........I have no idea where you get your information from but it is incorrect. A standard European citybus will have a lifespan of anywhere between 12-20 years depending on the type of vehicle and operating enviroment.

Would this also depending upon what country? I heard Portugal runs MAN buses and some others ones.

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