New Flyer MiDi

[MAX BRT]

ElDorado buses are rarely mentioned here in the US. I would tend to believe sales have declined here too.

[Transit geek]

Maybe if ADL manufactures the MiDi in a 40-foot or even 60-foot articulated configuration it would make a formidable competitor to the bigger manufacturers around.

[MiExpress]

29 minutes ago, MAX BRT said:

ElDorado buses are rarely mentioned here in the US. I would tend to believe sales have declined here too.

Not at all, sales of the EZ Rider and Axess have remained stable in the US over the last few years. However the Vicinity has just begun to penetrate the US market so it is still unknown what affect this will have especially on EZ Rider sales (Axess is a 35'/40' product line). The shuttle business (airports, universities) is still lucrative for Eldorado's heavy duty product lines. However, Grande West may take away some of this business especially if the first deployment of Vicinity buses at Atlanta Airport is successful, and if they are willing to customize their buses for the airports (door configurations for example) like Eldorado does.

[Mr. Transit]

I never understood why El Dorado never goes after small bus contracts that Gillig consistently wins all the time...the last contact I know they won was in February with the Dallas-Fort Worth Airport for Axess buses.

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[MAX BRT]

2 hours ago, Silly Tilley said:

Not at all, sales of the EZ Rider and Axess have remained stable in the US over the last few years. However the Vicinity has just begun to penetrate the US market so it is still unknown what affect this will have especially on EZ Rider sales (Axess is a 35'/40' product line). The shuttle business (airports, universities) is still lucrative for Eldorado's heavy duty product lines. (snipped)

I did not know that, thanks!

[3we]

16 hours ago, Mr. Transit said:

I never understood why El Dorado never goes after small bus contracts that Gillig consistently wins all the time...the last contact I know they won was in February with the Dallas-Fort Worth Airport for Axess buses.

 

In 2014 it bid for Valley Metro's (Phoenix) business...the Axess was 9.5% higher in price than Gillig, 5.4% higher than Xcelsior  (margin was less for diesel).

[WMATAC40LF]

17 hours ago, MAX BRT said:

ElDorado buses are rarely mentioned here in the US. I would tend to believe sales have declined here too.

Well they are doing a few orders this year, and an authority near me is getting 7. El-dorado is also semi-popular with private operators in the US, so it can survive south of the border for now (assuming Grande West doesn't eat their lunch).

17 hours ago, Transit geek said:

Maybe if ADL manufactures the MiDi in a 40-foot or even 60-foot articulated configuration it would make a formidable competitor to the bigger manufacturers around.

Not gonna happen. MIDI/Dart buses are mid-size by US standards (as opposed to your standard nova or xcelcior), and given how the MIDI already failed, I doubt AD could justify the R&D costs of making and oversized version of an unpopular bus. If they were to go bigger, they'd want a different body style an chassis.

[MVTArider]

On 5/10/2017 at 7:27 PM, orionbus said:

https://newflyer.com/rss/831-new-flyer-and-alexander-dennis-agree-to-transition-midi®-bus-to-north-american-based-alexander-dennis-inc

I was informed this was gonna happen a few months ago. Here is the press release. New Flyer is stepping away from MiDi production.

I was thinking this would happen when Alexander-Dennis had the announcement about opening the Nappanee, Indiana Facility. It makes much more sense for them to be manufacturing both products, 500 and 200, under their own brand vs. continuing to contract one to NFI. I'm guessing A-D will also be introducing the MMC version to the North American market.

As for the MiDi being higher in price than the new rival Vicinity, I have to wonder if A-D might be able to get the price point down a bit manufacturing directly. Labor in IN is probably a little cheaper than MN. And I suspect NFI was paying some sort of fee to A-D for the rights to produce their product. There is probably also some efficiency in manufacturing similar models together in the facility vs. the awkward NFI MiDi and Xcelsior floor assembly line setup. (which didn't seem like a real permanent long-term setup)

On 5/11/2017 at 5:47 AM, TransitFocus said:

I understand this to be the third failed North American launch of their mid-size platform. 1. Dennis Dart 2. JV with Thomas School Buses (Freightliner) and now 3. New Flyer

I wouldn't call it a failed attempt yet. While they didn't sell like hotcakes they did manage to get 200 built and delivered over a four year span. Now Alexander Dennis is taking over and continuing to offer them directly.

[MiExpress]

17 hours ago, Mr. Transit said:

I never understood why El Dorado never goes after small bus contracts that Gillig consistently wins all the time...the last contact I know they won was in February with the Dallas-Fort Worth Airport for Axess buses.

 

Always thought one limiting factor was that Eldorado does not have a dedicated sales team nor does it have one exclusive sales dealer, there are multiple Eldorado dealers across the country and sales seem to depend on whether the sales dealers bid on tenders. Regardless there are quite a few systems that have purchased Eldorados.

Shameless plug, been working on Eldorado builders list the last little while. Not complete by any means but you can see they did have orders with many different systems. https://sites.google.com/site/busproductionlists/eldorado

8 minutes ago, MVTArider said:

I wouldn't call it a failed attempt yet. While they didn't sell like hotcakes they did manage to get 200 built and delivered over a four year span. Now Alexander Dennis is taking over and continuing to offer them directly.

That's what the press release implies. Problem is, the benefit of having New Flyer as a partner was that there knowledge of the North American market in terms of sales, marketing, and after sales support, as well as familiarity with the New Flyer brand name would help sales. If New Flyer could only sell 200 Midis in 4 years (when the original target was 150-200 per year to begin with) I would be interested to hear how people think ADL will improve on that, I have my doubts personally.

[TheAverageJoe]

19 hours ago, orionbus said:

Eldorado sales are declining in Canada. Cityview Bus Sales (Ontario-Canadian dealer for Eldorado) hasn't had an order for about 2 years now.

Tokmakjian did not order their new BRT Ez Rider Max's for the Billy Bishop contract from Cityview?

[WMATAC40LF]

With NFI off the brand name and the loss of their support services, I think they'll sell less (assuming that they can't get the price down). Labor in Indiana might be cheaper, but if you're using Chinese labor (at least for Canadian Vicinity buses) you'll always have the cheapest product. Even for Buy-America Vicinities, up to 40% of the bus can be sourced from China. 

I think that this move makes sense for NFI given that it frees up a production line for the better selling Xcelcior (reducing their order backlog).

[TheAverageJoe]

27 minutes ago, WMATAC40LF said:

 

I think that this move makes sense for NFI given that it frees up a production line for the better selling Xcelcior (reducing their order backlog).

That is what I been saying, New Flyer is in the winner here as they can use that line to clear up the Xcelcior backlog.

[Gillig1109]

On 5/11/2017 at 6:30 PM, MAX BRT said:

ElDorado buses are rarely mentioned here in the US. I would tend to believe sales have declined here too.

Eldorado's are more commonly used for shuttle services like college campuses and hospital grounds.

23 hours ago, WMATAC40LF said:

With NFI off the brand name and the loss of their support services, I think they'll sell less (assuming that they can't get the price down). Labor in Indiana might be cheaper, but if you're using Chinese labor (at least for Canadian Vicinity buses) you'll always have the cheapest product. Even for Buy-America Vicinities, up to 40% of the bus can be sourced from China. 

 

I agree. I guess this is why MARTA went with Grande West for the Vicinity. It's funny that they demo'd the MiDi but ultimately went with GWT without demoing their product. Just goes to show how much transit authoritys are willing to save.

[TheAverageJoe]

22 hours ago, Gillig1109 said:

Eldorado's are more commonly used for shuttle services like college campuses and hospital grounds.

I agree. I guess this is why MARTA went with Grande West for the Vicinity. It's funny that they demo'd the MiDi but ultimately went with GWT without demoing their product. Just goes to show how much transit authoritys are willing to save.

MARTA went with VIcinity as they had quicker delivery time then for the MiDi. MARTA used only State and county funding as MARTA's Vicinity are the China assembled ones.

[MAX BRT]

Joe, you sure know a lot! Thanks for your contributions to the board.

[septa105R5/seClip9]

Following New Flyer's announcement few days ago that it is transferring production of MiDi buses to Alexander Dennis, looks like SEPTA likely took delivery of one of the last New Flyer Brand MiDi buses between mid 2016 and early 2017 (all early 2016 models).

Krapf's also recently took delivery of MiDis, but one 2014 MiDi MD35 likely a former demo in orange and silver color and the other one is brand new 2015 MiDi MD30 model. 

Not sure if any other transit operators have took any within early 2017

[ORION]

46 minutes ago, septa105R5/seClip9 said:

Krapf's also recently took delivery of MiDis, but one 2014 MiDi MD35 likely a former demo in orange and silver color and the other one is brand new 2015 MiDi MD30 model. 

Got any photos? So thats where the 35ft demo ended up.

[septa105R5/seClip9]

This is not my picture (courtesy of Warren Crosby). This was in orange and silver paint ex New Flyer Demo before it was repainted into current Phlash color scheme as #1512

Before

After

 

[TheAverageJoe]

On 5/14/2017 at 11:02 PM, orionbus said:

Got any photos? So thats where the 35ft demo ended up.

I will see if I can get into the garage when I am there if Warren is not working this Saturday . Since he may be driving a phlash that day.

[TheAverageJoe]

On 5/15/2017 at 3:12 PM, TheAverageJoe said:

I will see if I can get into the garage when I am there if Warren is not working this Saturday . Since he may be driving a splash that day.

Who ever is on my Facebook I do have some pics on there from last weekend.

On 5/14/2017 at 11:02 PM, orionbus said:

Got any photos? So thats where the 35ft demo ended up.

I have photos of it on my Facebook, its already been wrapped in Phlash colours and was in service Sunday.

[TheAverageJoe]