New Flyer MiDi

[MAX BRT]

Press Release from New Flyer:

New Flyer and Alexander Dennis announce joint venture to introduce a North American midi bus

Monday, May 07, 2012

WINNIPEG, May 7, 2012 /CNW/ - (TSX: NFI) (TSX: NFI.UN) New Flyer Industries Inc. ("New Flyer" or the "Company"),the leading manufacturer of heavy-duty transit buses in Canada and the United States announced today a long-term joint venture with Alexander Dennis Limited ("Alexander Dennis") as part of its strategy to pursue growth and diversification. Alexander Dennis is the United Kingdom's largest manufacturer of medium, heavy-duty and double-deck transit buses and coaches.

The two companies will collaborate to introduce a North American medium-duty low-floor bus (or "midi bus") specifically developed and tested to a 10-year operational life. This strategic partnership will build upon New Flyer's North American market leading position, manufacturing expertise and extensive aftermarket support network, with Alexander Dennis bringing demonstrated design expertise of quality midi buses, having delivered over 16,000 of this class of bus to customers throughout the UK, Hong Kong, New Zealand and Australia.

"Transit operators are faced with unprecedented pressure to operate and adapt their fleets in today's tough economic conditions", said Paul Soubry, New Flyer's President and Chief Executive Officer. "With the escalating costs of fuel and maintenance, there are many of our transit customers' routes that do not require a full sized heavy-duty bus with a 12-year design life. Customers on both sides of the border have asked us to provide a bus that meets their needs for this application, but with the full support of New Flyer's broad aftermarket network of field service, warranty, training, publications and spare parts support."

"We also believe that private shuttle operators in North America are looking for a high quality product", Mr. Soubry explained. "In developing our strategy to support both segments, we evaluated our own midi design and compared it to buses in this class around the world. In the end the decision was quite simple - Alexander Dennis has a world-class midi bus that is modern, quiet, fuel efficient and provides the best value for our customers."

New Flyer estimates the market for this type of product could be approximately 1,000 buses on an annual basis.

[Mike]

The rest of the news release:

“The decision to develop a strategic relationship with New Flyer was a simple one", said

Colin Robertson, Chief Executive of Alexander Dennis. “We extensively researched the

North American market and came to the same conclusion. New Flyer is recognized for its

excellent reputation for customer care and product support and it is a great compliment to

our specific product expertise. We look forward to working with New Flyer to merge all the

benefits of our midi bus with New Flyer’s commitment to lifetime customer care in North

America.”

Under the arrangements of the new joint venture, New Flyer is responsible for sales,

marketing, manufacturing and aftermarket support with Alexander Dennis performing

engineering, test and prototype development activities. Prototypes of the New

Flyer/Alexander Dennis midi bus for North America will be built this summer, with a planned

market launch in early 2013. The midi bus will be offered to both public transit and private

operators and will have propulsion system options ranging from clean diesel, electric hybrid

and compressed natural gas.

[MAX BRT]

I was not familiar with the term "midi bus". Wikipedia says a midi bus "can be anywhere between 8 metres (26 ft 3 in) and 11 metres (36 ft 1 in) long.

I take this to mean Gillig and El Dorado will have more competition when TAs want something smaller than 40 feet. Are Gilligs in that size range considered medium-duty?

[ABQ RIDE]

I was not familiar with the term "midi bus". Wikipedia says a midi bus "can be anywhere between 8 metres (26 ft 3 in) and 11 metres (36 ft 1 in) long.

I take this to mean Gillig and El Dorado will have more competition when TAs want something smaller than 40 feet. Are Gilligs in that size range considered medium-duty?

I would say that 30-foot Gilligs are borderline medium-duty, however, 35-foot Gilligs are definitely heavy-duty.

[wchu94]

Gilligs are in the range, they have a 29 footer bus

[FlyerD901]

So this would be like an Orion II type of vehicle?

[ABQ RIDE]

So this would be like an Orion II type of vehicle?

I'm guessing more like an ElDorado EZ Rider II-type vehicle.

[MVTArider]

Interesting, I'm surprised they want to get into that after the Opus, SLF, Ultra LF, LMB, LFN/Optare etc. never really worked out well. I guess this does offer New Flyer an opportunity to pursue customers in the 30'-35' market though that would otherwise be buying Gillig and Eldo, or possibly medium duty cutaways. It might also put New Flyer in a good position if there are agencies that can't spend more to replace a 10 year unit with a 12 year Eldo or Gillig unit, but don't want to go to cutaways.

The two companies will collaborate to introduce a North American medium-duty low-floor bus (or "midi bus") specifically developed and tested to a 10-year operational life. ...

Wait, I thought they already had that, isn't it called a "cheaply spec'd D40LFR"?

[Centralsmt]

_{It'll be an "Americanised" Enviro 200, which is basically an updated Dennis Dart.}

[323 Surrey Ctrl Stn]

To quote my friend maybe we'll get the "Xcelsidart"

Chris Cassidy

[armorand]

Seriously? NFI has definitely made its own D30LF buse's before, they even have 30ft Xcelisors operating in the states, and an D30LFR demo in Winnipeg somewhere. Why do they need to team up across the pond for a type of bus like this?

Even then, the 1996 D30LFs Winnipeg has, have lasted 16 years. Hopefully, Alexander Dennis doesn't force NFI to make it a complete low-floor.

[Centralsmt]

Seriously? NFI has definitely made its own D30LF buse's before, they even have 30ft Xcelisors operating in the states, and an D30LFR demo in Winnipeg somewhere. Why do they need to team up across the pond for a type of bus like this?

Even then, the 1996 D30LFs Winnipeg has, have lasted 16 years. Hopefully, Alexander Dennis doesn't force NFI to make it a complete low-floor.

Because its not a type of bus like that!!

Its is a medium weight bus, not a heavyweight...........read the full press release.

[2044]

they even have 30ft Xcelisors operating in the states

They don't.

Hopefully, Alexander Dennis doesn't force NFI to make it a complete low-floor.

Why would they if the Enviro200Dart isn't?

[MAX BRT]

Interesting, I'm surprised they want to get into that after the Opus, SLF, Ultra LF, LMB, LFN/Optare etc. never really worked out well. I guess this does offer New Flyer an opportunity to pursue customers in the 30'-35' market though that would otherwise be buying Gillig and Eldo, or possibly medium duty cutaways. It might also put New Flyer in a good position if there are agencies that can't spend more to replace a 10 year unit with a 12 year Eldo or Gillig unit, but don't want to go to cutaways.

Thanks, MVTA

So medium-duty means cutaways? That makes sense to me.

[ABQ RIDE]

Thanks, MVTA So medium-duty means cutaways? That makes sense to me.

Not all cutaways are medium duty; typically those used for Dial-a-Ride/paratransit service are light duty. Medium-duty typically includes larger cutaways and some smaller transit models. Such transit models that can be considered medium-duty include the ElDorado EZ Rider series, Thomas/Dennis SLF, Optima Opus, Blue Bird Ultra LMB and Ultra LF, and maybe the 30-foot Gillig Low Floors.

Hopefully New Flyer knows what they are doing here, considering the Thomas/Dennis SLF was junk.

[MAX BRT]

Medium-duty typically includes larger cutaways and some smaller transit models. Such transit models that can be considered medium-duty include the ElDorado EZ Rider series, Thomas/Dennis SLF, Optima Opus, Blue Bird Ultra LMB and Ultra LF, and maybe the 30-foot Gillig Low Floors.

Thanks, ABQ!

I looked up the ElDorado National website and it says the EZ Rider II is Altoona tested for a 12 year / 500,000 mile life cycle.

ElDorado has the Passport-HD cutaway on the website. Its scheduled to be Altoona tested for a 10 year / 350,000 mile life cycle. But I don't think its a low floor bus?

Looks like NFI is targeting a market with few known competitors.

Thanks, ABQ!

I looked up the ElDorado National website and it says the EZ Rider II is Altoona tested for a 12 year / 500,000 mile life cycle.

ElDorado has the Passport-HD cutaway on the website. Its scheduled to be Altoona tested for a 10 year / 350,000 mile life cycle. But I don't think its a low floor bus?

Looks like NFI is targeting a market with few known competitors.

Wait, here is a medium-duty midi bus:

http://arbocsv.com/liberty.php

[323 Surrey Ctrl Stn]

Thanks, ABQ!

I looked up the ElDorado National website and it says the EZ Rider II is Altoona tested for a 12 year / 500,000 mile life cycle.

ElDorado has the Passport-HD cutaway on the website. Its scheduled to be Altoona tested for a 10 year / 350,000 mile life cycle. But I don't think its a low floor bus?

Looks like NFI is targeting a market with few known competitors.

The Passport is low floor, biggest issue with it is the location of the rear door in relation to the driver. The driver is required to turn his/her head quite a ways back to monitor the door.

Chris Cassidy

[323 Surrey Ctrl Stn]

I should rephrase that. The biggest issue with the Passport isn't the door placement, but it is an issue.

Chris Cassidy

[Articulated]

 

• Heavy-duty buses are your typical transit buses. The normal models from New Flyer, Nova, and Orion are all considered heavy-duty buses. They will normally be able to last for 18 years.

   

• Medium-duty buses are the cheaper transit buses. ElDorado's E-Z Rider series, Blue Bird's Ultra LF, and the SLF were all medium-duty buses, and as said before, are usually designed to last 10-12 years. They're also rarely 40ft long, usually in 29-35ft lengths.

   

• Lighter-duty buses are your variety of cutaways, that will last anywhere from 5-7 years.

   

This being said, the D30LFR and XD30 (and respective variants) are heavy-duty buses... most agencies buying 30ft buses are buying that length often for cost savings, and a heavy duty 30ft is not that much cheaper than a heavy duty 40ft; this is why the E-Z Rider is making big headway with transit agencies which have the majority of their fleet as 40ft New Flyer products.

Therefore, this partnership could prove to be very lucrative for New Flyer, as many agencies that have large existing fleets of New Flyer products may be able to find either parts commonality or benefiting from a pre-existing relationship with the manufacturer. Considering there's no other big medium-duty manufacturer in Canada (the E-Z Rider is fully built in California and exported through dealers into Canada), New Flyer also stands to gain from Canadian Content requirements over its other competitors.

[Cimon8000]

_{It'll be an "Americanised" Enviro 200, which is basically an updated Dennis Dart.}

I wish Enviro 300 will be included in this joint venture but seems this is not the case........

[BBC 9197]

I looked up the Dart on google and I'm sorry to say that from what I can see, the Enviro 200 is a cheaply built piece of junk and looks to be of no better quality then say the Thomas SLF, Blue Bird Ultra LF or the Optare. Hopefully NFI will insist on redesigning the drivers cab, they could use the same parts as the Xcelsior or D40LF to standardize parts and quality.

It's ok to make an "economy" option but so far no one has gotten the balance between quality and economy right, though El Dorado is close.

[Centralsmt]

I wish Enviro 300 will be included in this joint venture but seems this is not the case........

Why,? The Enviro 300 is normally bodied on other chassis, ie. most have been built on MAN chassis, and it is now available on Volvo and Scania chassis, integral Enviro 300's are, in theory, just bigger versions of the Enviro 200 (although there have been small amounts of Enviro 200 bodies built on other chassis) and in reality the integral Enviro 300 isn't that popular,or overly reliable, the "stretched" Dennis Dart chassis has always been plagued by structural issues as it is not a full heavyweight chassis.

As North American operators dont purchase body on chassis vehicles it does not make sense to market that type of vehicle here.

[MAX BRT]

• Heavy-duty buses are your typical transit buses. The normal models from New Flyer, Nova, and Orion are all considered heavy-duty buses. They will normally be able to last for 18 years.
• Medium-duty buses are the cheaper transit buses. ElDorado's E-Z Rider series, Blue Bird's Ultra LF, and the SLF were all medium-duty buses, and as said before, are usually designed to last 10-12 years. They're also rarely 40ft long, usually in 29-35ft lengths.
• Lighter-duty buses are your variety of cutaways, that will last anywhere from 5-7 years.

This being said, the D30LFR and XD30 (and respective variants) are heavy-duty buses... most agencies buying 30ft buses are buying that length often for cost savings, and a heavy duty 30ft is not that much cheaper than a heavy duty 40ft; this is why the E-Z Rider is making big headway with transit agencies which have the majority of their fleet as 40ft New Flyer products.

(snipped)

Thanks! That makes a lot of sense.

What is the price of a diesel 30 foot E-Z Rider? What fuel savings do TAs realize by buying medium-duty instead of heavy-duty?

[Centralsmt]

I looked up the Dart on google and I'm sorry to say that from what I can see, the Enviro 200 is a cheaply built piece of junk and looks to be of no better quality then say the Thomas SLF, Blue Bird Ultra LF or the Optare. Hopefully NFI will insist on redesigning the drivers cab, they could use the same parts as the Xcelsior or D40LF to standardize parts and quality.

It's ok to make an "economy" option but so far no one has gotten the balance between quality and economy right, though El Dorado is close.

You are writing off a bus which has sold thousands all over the world because of what you read on Google.................

I take it you've never actually seen one let alone travelled on one?

[Bus_Medic]

If they're as bad as the SLF, which I have personal experience on, you can stop that argument right there.