Minnesota Valley Transit Authority

[MVTArider]

On 11/13/2020 at 8:01 PM, hp2ena said:

How are folks feeling about a ride on the last Nova to ever operate on the Red Line on December 4? 

Hmm, might be interested, but not sure if I'd be available that evening. Are you looking at the 12:12am SB trip or just one of the late evening trips that would be covered by that bus?

On 11/14/2020 at 10:59 AM, Tcmetro said:

MVTA put out their statement on the Red Line, and I think they make a fair point about the transparency in costs. For some reason I feel that it's a cover story by the Met Council. I wonder if the reason Met Council wanted to change operations has to do with MVTA closing the Cedar Grove freeway stop as well as the 140th and 147th Street stations

IMO closing those stations during the mass drop off in ridership, social unrest, and the uncertainly of virus spread method with C19 pandemic was a smart move. Now that the cold weather is back however, it will be good to have them re-open.

I would be interested in seeing a side-by-side comparison of hourly operating expense for MVTA/Schmitty vs. Metro Transit for the Red Line. I assume Schmitty operators and technicians make a few dollars less per hour than MT operators, but I can also see the thing of paying MVTA funds to pay Schmitty to operate possibly adding unnecessary cost.

[hp2ena]

10 hours ago, MVTArider said:

Hmm, might be interested, but not sure if I'd be available that evening. Are you looking at the 12:12am SB trip or just one of the late evening trips that would be covered by that bus?

Thinking of riding the last round trip, which I think departs at 11pm. That trip sure has a very long layover in Apple Valley tho so I'm wondering if it's a deadhead back to the garage then someone else takes over or what. 

Keep me posted. I would like to make a request into MOA so we can take photos. I've actually been asked recently to stop taking photos by their security forces. 

10 hours ago, MVTArider said:

I would be interested in seeing a side-by-side comparison of hourly operating expense for MVTA/Schmitty vs. Metro Transit for the Red Line. I assume Schmitty operators and technicians make a few dollars less per hour than MT operators, but I can also see the thing of paying MVTA funds to pay Schmitty to operate possibly adding unnecessary cost.

I believe the starting wage for Schmitty operators are around $22/hour. 

[MVTArider]

On 11/16/2020 at 11:00 AM, hp2ena said:

Thinking of riding the last round trip, which I think departs at 11pm. That trip sure has a very long layover in Apple Valley tho so I'm wondering if it's a deadhead back to the garage then someone else takes over or what. 

Keep me posted. I would like to make a request into MOA so we can take photos. I've actually been asked recently to stop taking photos by their security forces.

I'm booked to work that evening so won't be able to go. Also with the recent C19 surge and MT going back to 'Essential Trips Only' I'm back to limiting my transit usage again for the next few weeks.

I've always been slightly confused who actually has jurisdiction over the MOA TC anyways. It's in the mall obviously, but then it is technically a Metro Transit station. I've never had any issues there, but I've heard of other fans who have also been asked to stop for security concerns. I also usually only take a photo or two at a time though so they probably just don't notice.

[Tcmetro]

MVTA making some bus changes on Dec 5th:

• 420 operating hourly every day; flex service removed due to availability from MVTA Connect.
• 442 operating hourly every day; extended from Apple Valley Transit Station to Mall of America with stops at Palomino Hills P&R and Cedar Grove TS.
• 497 and 499 return to hourly weekday service.
• 465 - 1 trip added
• 480 - 1 trip added stopping only at Apple Valley TS, Palomino Hills P&R, and Blackhawk P&R - bringing service back on the 480A branch.
• 442, 444, 495 now operate NB to MOA via Cedar Ave, Lindau Ln, 28th Ave, 82nd St, 24th Ave. Adds a new stop at 26th Ave & Lindau Ln in addition to the stop at 28th Ave & 82nd St.

https://www.mvta.com/route-alerts/dec5servicechanges/

[hp2ena]

18 hours ago, MVTArider said:

I'm booked to work that evening so won't be able to go. Also with the recent C19 surge and MT going back to 'Essential Trips Only' I'm back to limiting my transit usage again for the next few weeks.

I've always been slightly confused who actually has jurisdiction over the MOA TC anyways. It's in the mall obviously, but then it is technically a Metro Transit station. I've never had any issues there, but I've heard of other fans who have also been asked to stop for security concerns. I also usually only take a photo or two at a time though so they probably just don't notice.

Good call. Yeah, the transit station is MOA property, as well as the sidewalk *outside* of the ramp. Weird how property parcels are platted out in the burbs. The guards aren't out during the middle of the day, at least I haven't seen them. 

5 hours ago, Tcmetro said:

MVTA making some bus changes on Dec 5th:

• 420 operating hourly every day; flex service removed due to availability from MVTA Connect.
• 442 operating hourly every day; extended from Apple Valley Transit Station to Mall of America with stops at Palomino Hills P&R and Cedar Grove TS.
• 497 and 499 return to hourly weekday service.
• 465 - 1 trip added
• 480 - 1 trip added stopping only at Apple Valley TS, Palomino Hills P&R, and Blackhawk P&R - bringing service back on the 480A branch.
• 442, 444, 495 now operate NB to MOA via Cedar Ave, Lindau Ln, 28th Ave, 82nd St, 24th Ave. Adds a new stop at 26th Ave & Lindau Ln in addition to the stop at 28th Ave & 82nd St.

https://www.mvta.com/route-alerts/dec5servicechanges/

Sounds like revenge for losing the Red Line

[hp2ena]

Welp, driver had to call control on me last night to see if I could take photos of the Red Line buses. That’s what I get for shooting with a tank (6D and 16-35 rental), I guess?

[Tcmetro]

Found an interesting item in the MVTA News page. Basically it looks like MVTA is trying to get back at Met Council for rescinding the Red Line contract. It doesn't show up on the home page and looks like it was put together last minute, so it's probably just another part of the spat.

https://www.mvta.com/news/mvta-launching-additional-local-service-dec-5/

 

[MVTArider]

6 hours ago, Tcmetro said:

Found an interesting item in the MVTA News page. Basically it looks like MVTA is trying to get back at Met Council for rescinding the Red Line contract. It doesn't show up on the home page and looks like it was put together last minute, so it's probably just another part of the spat.

https://www.mvta.com/news/mvta-launching-additional-local-service-dec-5/

 

Well, if I was riding between MOA and AVTS and I had the choice between riding a well maintained quiet MVTA Gillig with dispatch confirmed connection to a local route or a rattling MT Gillig with a crapshoot connection, I'd certainly go with the MVTA one.

About tootin' time on the 443 and 447, that will make access way better for potential reverse commuters if it connects well. Someone can take an express from downtown Minneapolis to BTS, then connect to AVTS quickly, to access jobs along Cedar, or FLEX connect to all sorts of jobs in the Apple Valley/Rosemout area. Or potentially get from MOA to AVTS to ETS faster than the current MOA -RED--> CGTS -445--> ETS setup. Although chances are if one is trying to get somewhere in Eagan they need the 445 anyways, so may not be a big advantage. I'd still like to see a similar BTS <--> ETS express, that would open up a quick DT Minneapolis hub connection to a lot of retail/service jobs in the Eagan Town Center area, and of course additional shopping options.

[hp2ena]

And the Novas are history! 4257 was the last Nova to pull into Eagan garage at 12:45am

[Tcmetro]

9 hours ago, MVTArider said:

Well, if I was riding between MOA and AVTS and I had the choice between riding a well maintained quiet MVTA Gillig with dispatch confirmed connection to a local route or a rattling MT Gillig with a crapshoot connection, I'd certainly go with the MVTA one.

About tootin' time on the 443 and 447, that will make access way better for potential reverse commuters if it connects well. Someone can take an express from downtown Minneapolis to BTS, then connect to AVTS quickly, to access jobs along Cedar, or FLEX connect to all sorts of jobs in the Apple Valley/Rosemout area. Or potentially get from MOA to AVTS to ETS faster than the current MOA -RED--> CGTS -445--> ETS setup. Although chances are if one is trying to get somewhere in Eagan they need the 445 anyways, so may not be a big advantage. I'd still like to see a similar BTS <--> ETS express, that would open up a quick DT Minneapolis hub connection to a lot of retail/service jobs in the Eagan Town Center area, and of course additional shopping options.

The 442X and 442Y are clearly an attempt to sabotage the Red Line ridership, given that they are scheduled to depart only a couple minutes before the Red Line. The open competition between two public agencies operating on taxpayer dollars is plainly ridiculous in any case.

The 443 and 447 could be useful additions, I think they should be local routes instead of express routes. Some of the large resources devoted to these new routes might be better applied to some of the existing higher ridership lines like the 444 and 445.

Found this video on Twitter as well. Looks like most of the MVTA facilities are reopening except for the Cedar Grove Skyway and Apple Valley SB/Skyway.

 

[MVTArider]

1 hour ago, Tcmetro said:

The 442X and 442Y are clearly an attempt to sabotage the Red Line ridership, given that they are scheduled to depart only a couple minutes before the Red Line. The open competition between two public agencies operating on taxpayer dollars is plainly ridiculous in any case.

The 443 and 447 could be useful additions, I think they should be local routes instead of express routes. Some of the large resources devoted to these new routes might be better applied to some of the existing higher ridership lines like the 444 and 445.

Agreed, definitely wasting taxpayer dollars. The politics of this and how it unfolds will be interesting to see however. Hopefully it doesn't drag on too long.

For the 443/447, instead of that limited direct 1 station <-> 1 station connection I would really like to see a whole new regional express connection system of limited stop/express routes that run all day. Different from the BRT/ABRT lines, this would just be targeted at quickly connecting transit centers, transit hubs, some key destinations, via a network of separately branded lines. Kind of like GO Transit in the GTA or Go Triangle in Raleigh-Durham. Existing routes like the 94, 465, 475, 495 could be part of it. So perhaps a limited stop 451 connecting BTS, ETS, a couple key stops on Robert St for connections, then DT St. Paul. Buses could continue to be run by their respective agencies, and for branding maybe have X## series route numbers and call it the coneXtion network or something.

[hp2ena]

5 hours ago, Tcmetro said:

The 442X and 442Y are clearly an attempt to sabotage the Red Line ridership, given that they are scheduled to depart only a couple minutes before the Red Line. The open competition between two public agencies operating on taxpayer dollars is plainly ridiculous in any case.

The 443 and 447 could be useful additions, I think they should be local routes instead of express routes. Some of the large resources devoted to these new routes might be better applied to some of the existing higher ridership lines like the 444 and 445.

Found this video on Twitter as well. Looks like most of the MVTA facilities are reopening except for the Cedar Grove Skyway and Apple Valley SB/Skyway.

 

Skyway closed?? So how are Red Line riders supposed to get in and out of Cedar Grove?

[Tcmetro]

I guess the only way to know is to be on the ground. Must have been an interesting day.

[hp2ena]

BusFreak99 found a photo of 4252 on Flickr. With the lot number attached to it, I tracked it down to an insurance auction in Big Lake. Wonder what happened to it? A DPA request is pending. https://www.copart.com/lot/47955080/Photos/salvage-2012-nova-bus-corporation-bus-mn-st-cloud

[Tcmetro]

On 12/5/2020 at 12:42 PM, MVTArider said:

Agreed, definitely wasting taxpayer dollars. The politics of this and how it unfolds will be interesting to see however. Hopefully it doesn't drag on too long.

For the 443/447, instead of that limited direct 1 station <-> 1 station connection I would really like to see a whole new regional express connection system of limited stop/express routes that run all day. Different from the BRT/ABRT lines, this would just be targeted at quickly connecting transit centers, transit hubs, some key destinations, via a network of separately branded lines. Kind of like GO Transit in the GTA or Go Triangle in Raleigh-Durham. Existing routes like the 94, 465, 475, 495 could be part of it. So perhaps a limited stop 451 connecting BTS, ETS, a couple key stops on Robert St for connections, then DT St. Paul. Buses could continue to be run by their respective agencies, and for branding maybe have X## series route numbers and call it the coneXtion network or something.

I've always thought the same. I've always though MVTA would do well to have some lines that followed the arterials without deviation and more limited stops. The AVTS-BTS route would be nice to have a couple extra stops, especially given that it is most likely using CR 42 to Nicollet.

 

On 12/10/2020 at 8:28 AM, hp2ena said:

BusFreak99 found a photo of 4252 on Flickr. With the lot number attached to it, I tracked it down to an insurance auction in Big Lake. Wonder what happened to it? A DPA request is pending. https://www.copart.com/lot/47955080/Photos/salvage-2012-nova-bus-corporation-bus-mn-st-cloud

Nice find!

[hp2ena]

Five of the ex-MVTA Novas will be auctioned off in Hutchinson, MN on February 13, 2021. https://faheysales.proxibid.com/Fahey-Sales-Auctioneers-Appraisers/February-13-2021-Fleet-Government-Services/event-catalog/188794

[MVTArider]

Last week I had a little extra time while in the Eagan area, so I parked at ETS and hopped on the 443 to Apple Valley and got some photos of the current situation. All MVTA buses are only stopping at the northbound platform at AVTS. The ground level area on northbound is open and buses are using bays A, B, C in addition to outdoor bay D. (There were 3 cutaways waiting on Connect transfers in bay D when the bus was arriving) The ped bridge and southbound side are still closed. It appears Red Line is banished from the actual station bays, as that had its own little temporary stop a hundred feet to the north of the building. I'm not sure if that is due to the longtime MVTA vs. Metro Transit rivalry or if Metro Transit operators aren't comfortable with docking at the level boarding platforms. The Red Line buses sometimes layover at the temporary stop as well so that could be another factor. The 35' Gilligs are now dominant on the 443/447 runs. I'm assuming they're running them vs. their 2009 40' counterparts due to having rear doors. Otherwise it's a mix of 43xx/45xx/47xx/48xx/49xx BRTs on the 442 trips and other non-express services.

I was the only rider on the 443 trips I took going to and from. I saw a couple riders boarding 442 X/Y trips and a couple on one of the Red Line buses departing. It'll be interesting to see if any ridership numbers are noted in the upcoming MVTA board meeting packets.

                 

[Tcmetro]

Nice catches. I believe the Red Line is not making stops at the 140th and 147th high level platforms either.

Weird to see a 40-footer on the 420. Also I did not know MVTA was doing ad wraps these days. 

[hp2ena]

The Red Line is stopping at all low platforms due to potential incompatibility (although I've seen Gillig BRTs use the high station platforms on the Red Line in the past). The replacement buses they get should be compatible with the high platforms. 

I found out what happened to 4252. It was totaled in a crash on December 30, 2019. Not sure where it happened exactly, as I couldn't find anything through DPS. I got these files from a Met Council PRR. 

4252.eml Insurance Proceeds Payment Process Red Line Bus 4252.pdf Schmitty & Son 2012 Nova (Vin 00127) Estimate 1-15-20.xlsx

[MVTArider]

A few more observations, I rode to Cedar Grove today from MOA to do some shopping at the Outlet Mall. Waiting at MOA a 442X rolled in with 2 riders, followed by an empty Red and an empty 442Y. I took the 442Y to CGTS, another rider took the Red. At CGTS they do have the ped bridge to the online station open. As mentioned they have temp stop locations for Red in the online station section with low level curbs. Coming back I waited for the next 442Y after just missing one. One thing that's a bit confusing is they have the destinations set for SB 442Y Apple Valley TS / Via Cedar Grove TS / Mall of America, while NB is 442Y Mall of America / via Cedar Grove TS. I could've gotten on a 444 NB to MOA sooner as two others did, but it was packed. Me and one other rider got on the next 442Y. Later at the MOA I saw another 442Y departing with possibly 1 rider, and 3 riders waiting for the Red. Obviously these are just casual observations and nothing statistically significant, but it does look like the 442 runs are picking up a few rides that would otherwise be on the Red.

I can understand the turf and ridership feud between MT and MVTA. Especially considering historically 'Red Line' was actually the Cedar Ave Transitway, planned and pushed for by Dakota County and the MVTA with station to station service just being one of many components. (Frequent station to station service too, not just every 20-30) That said I'll echo your thoughts from before TCmetro, some of the, err, emptyish buses shadowing almost empty Red buses would be much more beneficial to the south metro transit patrons by providing temporary capacity and frequency boosts on well used services like the 444, 445 vs. simply competing for a handful of riders. On that note I do wonder if they have future plans for additional 444 service frequency once the Orange Line commences operations. I assume they'll be connecting with it at the south terminus in Burnsville.

[hp2ena]

Several of MVTA's 2006 coaches were listed for auction through Fahey Sales over the weekend. They'll be going with the Novas. 

[hp2ena]

On 12/10/2020 at 8:28 AM, hp2ena said:

BusFreak99 found a photo of 4252 on Flickr. With the lot number attached to it, I tracked it down to an insurance auction in Big Lake. Wonder what happened to it? A DPA request is pending. https://www.copart.com/lot/47955080/Photos/salvage-2012-nova-bus-corporation-bus-mn-st-cloud

4252 will be auctioned off from CoPart on February 1, 2021. 

[hp2ena]

4130, part of an 11-bus order, was delivered to MVTA's Burnsville facility today. https://www.instagram.com/p/CKrnTwHnC1c/ 

[MVTArider]

All of the Novas and most of the MCIs on Fahey's auction are already bid up in the $1500 range with a day and a half of bidding time to go. The same bidder is winning on the Novas which has me wondering if it's a dealer or operator trying to win.

[hp2ena]

On 2/11/2021 at 5:09 PM, MVTArider said:

All of the Novas and most of the MCIs on Fahey's auction are already bid up in the $1500 range with a day and a half of bidding time to go. The same bidder is winning on the Novas which has me wondering if it's a dealer or operator trying to win.

Looks like 4690 and 4258 went to the same person, and 4689, 4694, and 4256 went to another bidder. The rest got bought by yet another one.

As an aside, 4138 was delivered to Burnsville today.