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Daimler Closing Orion, Gives MCI U.S. Distribution Rights to Setra


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Not too surprised that Orion ended up going under - they are often at the higher end of bids. In the USA, there are still at least 5 providers of heavy-duty transit buses (New Flyer, Nova Bus, Gillig, NABI, and ElDorado). But in Canada, is it now only two suppliers?

As for the TTC, which has been getting Orions for years, I wonder if they will turn to New Flyer, which provided the 7300s, or to Nova Bus (which TTC has never operated in terms of the LFS, but of which they have the 7200s RTS buses).

One of the remaining orders for Orion is for MTA Bus...but they lost a 385-CNG bus order to New Flyer back in 2010. I wonder if that ended up being the last straw.

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Not too surprised that Orion ended up going under - they are often at the higher end of bids. In the USA, there are still at least 5 providers of heavy-duty transit buses (New Flyer, Nova Bus, Gillig, NABI, and ElDorado). But in Canada, is it now only two suppliers?

As for the TTC, which has been getting Orions for years, I wonder if they will turn to New Flyer, which provided the 7300s, or to Nova Bus (which TTC has never operated in terms of the LFS, but of which they have the 7200s RTS buses).

One of the remaining orders for Orion is for MTA Bus...but they lost a 385-CNG bus order to New Flyer back in 2010. I wonder if that ended up being the last straw.

Pretty much all that is left for Heavy Duty Buses for Canada will be Nova and New Flyer.

You actually would think Daimler may screw around with their current customers? Although they have nothing to loose, so you may be onto something!

They could still go after Daimler legally through the courts for not honoring the warranties.

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I have absolutely no idea what NABI has, or what it's up to. :P

And thanks!

Basically, all their buses are crap, except for one... Ever heard of the NABI Metro 45C (CompoBus)?

Pretty much all that is left for Heavy Duty Buses for Canada will be Nova and New Flyer.

They could still go after Daimler legally through the courts for not honoring the warranties.

Its basically "breach of contract" and yeah they could sue them

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So with Orion gone, TTC cant get anymore, so since Orion had bid for supplier for 40 ft and 60 ft buses, thats no longer valid that bid, do you think TTC will go New Flyer or have Nova Buses running the street, but I will miss the Orion Vs and VIs when they retire

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ElDorado serves Canada, right? Isn't the Axess a heavy-duty bus?

Yes but there is only Axess in service in Canada, Brantford. The major product they offer are the EZ's, although I'm not sure if those are classified as "heavy duty", and are only available up to 35 feet.

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ElDorado serves Canada, right? Isn't the Axess a heavy-duty bus?

ElDorado does market to Canada, and their E-Z Rider series does quite well with a number of properties north of the border, especially in southern Ontario. However, that product sort of straddles between a medium- and heavy-duty bus, not to mention it isn't manufactured in a 40ft length.

The Axess is very rare here, besides Brantford owning an ex-demo that toured a number of properties, I don't know of any transit agency that operates them. I'm also not sure of where it is on the quality scale, if it's similar to the E-Z Rider or if it can hold up to the same as any product from New Flyer, Nova, or Orion.

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Congratulations to TTC and NYCMTA which they FINALLY don't have to get anymore crap from Orion..............I really wonder what will TTC order from now on!

We will find out soon. The TTC's tenders for the supply of 40ft and 60ft buses for 2013-2016 just closed yesterday, Orion bid on both of them which is one of the reasons why this news today caught me off guard.

As for the TTC, which has been getting Orions for years, I wonder if they will turn to New Flyer, which provided the 7300s, or to Nova Bus (which TTC has never operated in terms of the LFS, but of which they have the 7200s RTS buses).

Technically the TTC has had a Nova LFS as part of their fleet. The TTC bought one LFS in 1998 to try out. It was sold to Barrie Transit (Barrie, Ontario) in 2000.

With many large Canadian transit agencies ordering from Nova Bus over the past few years such as Brampton, Calgary, Vancouver and of course Montreal, and not to mention New York, I feel that the TTC might follow suit and go with Nova Bus for their future 40ft orders. This chances of this would be even greater if they go with Nova Bus for their 60ft order which I think currently has a higher chance of happening than a 40ft Nova order at the moment. We'll just have to wait a couple weeks to see who wins the contracts for the supply of the 40ft and 60ft buses for 2013-2016.

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We will find out soon. The TTC's tenders for the supply of 40ft and 60ft buses for 2013-2016 just closed yesterday, Orion bid on both of them which is one of the reasons why this news today caught me off guard.

Technically the TTC has had a Nova LFS as part of their fleet. The TTC bought one LFS in 1998 to try out. It was sold to Barrie Transit (Barrie, Ontario) in 2000.

With many large Canadian transit agencies ordering from Nova Bus over the past few years such as Brampton, Calgary, Vancouver and of course Montreal, and not to mention New York, I feel that the TTC might follow suit and go with Nova Bus for their future 40ft orders. This chances of this would be even greater if they go with Nova Bus for their 60ft order which I think currently has a higher chance of happening than a 40ft Nova order at the moment. We'll just have to wait a couple weeks to see who wins the contracts for the supply of the 40ft and 60ft buses for 2013-2016.

They could split the orders could they? Half from NovaBus and the other from New Flyer? I heard a month ago that MTS (current manufacturer of the RTS) said they wanted to target the TTC as a Customer... Do you think Gillig might make a move into the Canadian Market? That Mississauga Orion facility would be a waste unless Gillig or NABI buy it over... MCI could even get back into the Transit market... lot's of possibilities! lol

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The Axess is very rare here, besides Brantford owning an ex-demo that toured a number of properties, I don't know of any transit agency that operates them. I'm also not sure of where it is on the quality scale, if it's similar to the E-Z Rider or if it can hold up to the same as any product from New Flyer, Nova, or Orion.

The Axxess in Brantford, unfortunately they don't go out at all. IIRC, they are for emergency use only.

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We will find out soon. The TTC's tenders for the supply of 40ft and 60ft buses for 2013-2016 just closed yesterday, Orion bid on both of them which is one of the reasons why this news today caught me off guard.

Technically the TTC has had a Nova LFS as part of their fleet. The TTC bought one LFS in 1998 to try out. It was sold to Barrie Transit (Barrie, Ontario) in 2000.

With many large Canadian transit agencies ordering from Nova Bus over the past few years such as Brampton, Calgary, Vancouver and of course Montreal, and not to mention New York, I feel that the TTC might follow suit and go with Nova Bus for their future 40ft orders. This chances of this would be even greater if they go with Nova Bus for their 60ft order which I think currently has a higher chance of happening than a 40ft Nova order at the moment. We'll just have to wait a couple weeks to see who wins the contracts for the supply of the 40ft and 60ft buses for 2013-2016.

I believe Orion did bid before the big news comes down! But things can change during process.

I have a feeling if Orion can build one big shot before closing rather batches for year by year, it means that TTC will be happy to get the amount of buses but at the same time, replacing the fleet too soon.

This is huge news. Also given the amount of activity in this thread (1500+ views and 85+ replies in 16 hours!). Going to take me some time to read through this topic!

I was going to say, this is the most fastest replies in one thread I've ever seen since I joined the board 14 years ago!

They could split the orders could they? Half from NovaBus and the other from New Flyer? I heard a month ago that MTS (current manufacturer of the RTS) said they wanted to target the TTC as a Customer... Do you think Gillig might make a move into the Canadian Market? That Mississauga Orion facility would be a waste unless Gillig or NABI buy it over... MCI could even get back into the Transit market... lot's of possibilities! lol

What I wrote about Gillig, it ain't going to happen!

http://www.cptdb.ca/...ndpost&p=546881

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I admit this news surprised me. I know that Calgary was looking at getting CNG, and with Orion gone guess that leaves NFI, unless Nova puts one into production.

I have never really been impressed with Orion products, except the V which was in my opinion the best they built.

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I admit this news surprised me. I know that Calgary was looking at getting CNG, and with Orion gone guess that leaves NFI, unless Nova puts one into production.

I have never really been impressed with Orion products, except the V which was in my opinion the best they built.

The HF will be the best ones ever, except the V that went to premature corrosion back in the early 90s. Don't forget the II, they simply outlast the cutaways!

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I found out that NABI (or American Ikarus at the time...) underbid Orion in 1994-1995 for SEPTA's order of 400 buses (original order was 350 40ft buses and 50 35ft buses). I wonder if Orion would have won that bid for those 400 buses (and they would have of course been Orion V's....) would Orion still be in the mess that it is in now.

Well, it's been 6 years since a major North American bus manufacturer went out of business (Neoplan USA)

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Not too surprised that Orion ended up going under - they are often at the higher end of bids. In the USA, there are still at least 5 providers of heavy-duty transit buses (New Flyer, Nova Bus, Gillig, NABI, and ElDorado). But in Canada, is it now only two suppliers?

Artics: Nova, NFI

40ft: Nova, NFI

30ft: NFI apparently, and El-Dorado

Don't forget the Enviro500 makers (Alexander-something), and Van Hool apparently in some areas of Central Canada

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They could split the orders could they? Half from NovaBus and the other from New Flyer? I heard a month ago that MTS (current manufacturer of the RTS) said they wanted to target the TTC as a Customer... Do you think Gillig might make a move into the Canadian Market? That Mississauga Orion facility would be a waste unless Gillig or NABI buy it over... MCI could even get back into the Transit market... lot's of possibilities! lol

The best would be to order 40ft Xcelsior and 60ft LFSA. Yeah I know I'm still dreaming... :)

Ordering both 40ft and 60ft from one manufacturer is the most likely winner for TTC.

But if they do not, I have a feeling they will like the Nova artic over the Xcelsior artic because the latter isn't even out yet and they want a more proven product. The 40ft is a 50/50 chance. The 60LFR they most likely won't because after all these years they didn't order it and NFI will get rid of it soon once the Xcelsior artic goes on to full production.

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I heard a month ago that MTS (current manufacturer of the RTS) said they wanted to target the TTC as a Customer... Do you think Gillig might make a move into the Canadian Market? That Mississauga Orion facility would be a waste unless Gillig or NABI buy it over... MCI could even get back into the Transit market... lot's of possibilities! lol

The TTC wouldn't touch an unproven product from an unproven company. Let alone a company that probably isn't even certified to sell buses in company (Just like Gillig and NABI aren't allowed).

Secondly, I doubt Daimler would divest itself of the Mississauga Orion plant, afterall they never said they're selling Orion. Plus, there's vacant warehouses and manufacturing facilities all over the place given the economy. There's plenty of offices and warehouses that are being "wasted".

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I wouldn't be so quick to count Gillig or the ElDorado Axxess out of the Canadian market. Things change - Gillig has a relatively new owner (Henry Crown Co. since 2008) and they might decide that the Canadian market is a better opportunity now that Orion is gone. Gillig specializes in selling to small to medium-sized agencies and there are plenty of those in Canada. If New Flyer can be qualified to sell in Quebec by setting up a partnership, there's nothing from stopping Gillig from doing the same to establish a Canadian presence.

As for ElDorado - as others have noted, they've already sold the EZ-Rider to canadian customers so how big of a leap is it really for them to sell a 35 or 40-foot bus?

One other thing that is really curious about yesterday's announcement is how shocked the employees that were interviewed have been. Usually when a company is in trouble, there are rumors flying around but it seems that the people who spoke to the media in Oriskany never saw it coming to this. I wonder if somthing happened that pushed Damler management to make a quick decision.

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We will find out soon. The TTC's tenders for the supply of 40ft and 60ft buses for 2013-2016 just closed yesterday, Orion bid on both of them which is one of the reasons why this news today caught me off guard.

Orion did not bid on the tenders. They simply requested the documents. There's a big difference between the two.

Dan

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The best would be to order 40ft Xcelsior and 60ft LFSA. Yeah I know I'm still dreaming... :)

Ordering both 40ft and 60ft from one manufacturer is the most likely winner for TTC.

But if they do not, I have a feeling they will like the Nova artic over the Xcelsior artic because the latter isn't even out yet and they want a more proven product. The 40ft is a 50/50 chance. The 60LFR they most likely won't because after all these years they didn't order it and NFI will get rid of it soon once the Xcelsior artic goes on to full production.

I don't see why TTC can't order from two companies. Its been done before. And the argument for unproven products is not much of a argument. The Orion VII was unproven when hey got the 7400s. Two years after production TTC got the 7400s, NG was less. The Orion II is probably the longest serving Orion bus TTC bought, and still going. They work about 7-8 hours striaght a day, for 20+ years. And has a good reputation at Lake Shore. They do get it easy for doing light work in some areas of the city.

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I don't see why TTC can't order from two companies. Its been done before. And the argument for unproven products is not much of a argument. The Orion VII was unproven when hey got the 7400s. Two years after production TTC got the 7400s, NG was less. The Orion II is probably the longest serving Orion bus TTC bought, and still going. They work about 7-8 hours striaght a day, for 20+ years. And has a good reputation at Lake Shore. They do get it easy for doing light work in some areas of the city.

Didn't Orion consult with NYCMTA and the TTC when they were in the planning stages of either the original VII or the NG VII? This being one of the reasons why NYCMTA and the TTC made such large orders from them, because they had a part in the planning?

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Didn't Orion consult with NYCMTA and the TTC when they were in the planning stages of either the original VII or the NG VII? This being one of the reasons why NYCMTA and the TTC made such large orders from them, because they had a part in the planning?

Totally forgot about that.

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