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Winnipeg and Artic Buses

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OK, Sounds good, but what's the catch???? Last time we tested them "they" said the buses weren't suitable for Winnipeg. What's changed?? (besides a huge price saving)

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Winnipeg Transit has been offered an opportunity to purchase 20 pre-owned buses for $53,000 (plus PST) each. That's less than 10 per cent of the new cost of $625,000 each.

The negotiated purchase price includes delivery to Winnipeg, two years of indoor heated storage, and approximately $11,500 per bus of refurbishment to be undertaken by New Flyer Industries, according to a press release from the city.

http://www.cbc.ca/ne...eg.html?cmp=rss

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OK, Sounds good, but what's the catch???? Last time we tested them "they" said the buses weren't suitable for Winnipeg. What's changed?? (besides a huge price saving)

The catch is that they are someone else's hand-me-downs and are about 10 years old.

Dan

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I find the picture in the article humorous if they are indeed going with used busses.

Articulated buses, like this one, could soon be roaming Winnipeg's transit routes. (New Flyer)

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I find the picture in the article humorous if they are indeed going with used busses.

Agreed! Like were gonna get an Xcelisor artic anytime soon.....

I hope they do purchase it. Route 60 could use some running 6 am - 6 pm, along with 62, 70, 47, 11 and 21 mid-day

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I like the picture showing a brand new bus. I just found a picture of the actually bendy buses we're getting. :rolleyes::rolleyes::lol::lol:

Oh god lmao, that would be horrible! If we ever get new buse's, I hope that its modelled with 1987 D40-style plug doors. I absolutely LOVE that kind of D40 to death! Got me interested in public transit... :)

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My understanding is the buses in question are D60LF's (not D60LFR's).

If I recall correctly the two main reasons for the failure of the previous DE60LF test (Dec. 2007 - Apr 2008) was [1] the failure of the hybrid power train to deliver significant fuel savings, and [2] road grit fouling the turntable. These used units are straight diesels and won't have the first problem. I wonder if turntable design changes have solved the second problem, or if even with the added maintenance cost these units are still a good buy.

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My understanding is the buses in question are D60LF's (not D60LFR's).

If I recall correctly the two main reasons for the failure of the previous DE60LF test (Dec. 2007 - Apr 2008) was [1] the failure of the hybrid power train to deliver significant fuel savings, and [2] road grit fouling the turntable. These used units are straight diesels and won't have the first problem. I wonder if turntable design changes have solved the second problem, or if even with the added maintenance cost these units are still a good buy.

http://www.cptdb.ca/index.php?showtopic=14198

I remember posting another thread related to this not long ago actually! Link leads right to it

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I like the picture showing a brand new bus. I just found a picture of the actually bendy buses we're getting. :rolleyes::rolleyes::lol::lol:

wts03.jpg

wts01.jpg

On the upside, the power plant if infinitely interchangeable. :P

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An older article, but I wonder if the buses they talk about are what we're getting??

http://www.ottawasun...QBzT2w.facebook

Yes -- the 20 D60LFs that are proposed to be acquired by WT are out of the lot of 226 that were traded in by OC Transpo -- who received 306 new D60LFRs (the 226 plus an additional 80 that were to be ordered in any case).

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Yes -- the 20 D60LFs that are proposed to be acquired by WT are out of the lot of 226 that were traded in by OC Transpo -- who received 306 new D60LFRs (the 226 plus an additional 80 that were to be ordered in any case).

226? Holy, thats alot of Artics!

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Does anybody know what engine they have....6V92 maybe?

As OC Transpo units they had DD Series 50. (OC Transpo did not trade in the 6451-6503 series from 2008-09 as part of their trade-in deal, which have Cummins ISL).

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As OC Transpo units they had DD Series 50. (OC Transpo did not trade in the 6451-6503 series from 2008-09 as part of their trade-in deal, which have Cummins ISL).

Correction: It's 6351 to 6403.

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Thanks for the correction.

Looks like some of the OC history of the used artics has come out in this Winnipeg Free Press article:

Bendy buses deemed 'lemons'

City considers used vehicles with history of catching fire

By: Jen Skerritt

Posted: 03/6/2012 1:00 AM | Comments: 0 (including replies)

The used bendy buses Winnipeg wants to buy have been called "lemons" and were part of Ottawa's old fleet that had faulty parts that caused some buses to catch fire.

Last week, Winnipeg Transit announced it wants to spend $1.1 million to purchase the articulated buses at a discounted rate from New Flyer Industries after Ottawa traded them in for new buses. The buses will cost $53,000 each, instead of the $625,000 they would cost if purchased new.

In total, it will cost Winnipeg $2.2 million to buy and fix up the buses.

Ottawa used the buses between 2001 and 2004, and media reports show some of the articulated buses had defective parts and faulty brakes that caused some buses to catch fire. Last April, Ottawa city council voted to replace 226 of its bendy buses with newer, fuel-efficient models.

A City of Ottawa report said transit had a large backlog of work due to "major repairs" required on some of the 226 articulated buses purchased between 2001 and 2004. The report said it would cost transit $66 million to refurbish the buses.

One Ottawa city councillor called the buses "lemons," according to media reports. City of Ottawa spokesman Jocelyne Turner said it was a business decision not to refurbish the buses.

Winnipeg Transit director Dave Wardrop said Winnipeg will be able to have "pick of the litter" and select 20 of the best buses from the 226 Ottawa traded in. Wardrop said these buses were close to 10 years old and need to be refurbished to increase the number of years they can drive on city streets.

He said Ottawa decided to trade them in because of a financing deal the city worked out with New Flyer. Wardrop said any problems have been corrected by the bus manufacturer, and city mechanics will have a closer look at the buses if the deal is approved by city council.

"Whatever minor defects or difficulties that these particular buses have associated with them have since been corrected by the bus manufacturer New Flyer," Wardrop said. "'There isn't any single concern related to this bus (type) that stands out."

An administrative report recommends Winnipeg add 20 articulated buses to its fleet amid concern there are increasing instances where buses along busy routes have left would-be passengers behind because they're overcrowded.

Articulated buses, which are about 18 metres long, carry about 40 per cent more passengers than a regular bus. A new report said 16 bendy buses that operate seven hours each day would relieve many cases of overcrowding on Winnipeg's busiest transit routes.

Winnipeg Transit estimates it will cost $11,500 to fix up each bus.

Due to the work required, Winnipeg Transit will likely not put the buses into service before 2014. New Flyer has agreed to store the buses in a heated facility for two years, which will give Winnipeg Transit time to refurbish and outfit them.

Wardrop said Winnipeg purchases and fixes buses all the time, and it's not unusual to have industrial equipment in need of repair.

jen.skerritt@freepress.mb.ca

Republished from the Winnipeg Free Press print edition March 6, 2012 A3

That being said, even if these buses aren't the "pick of the litter" (which I suspect come from 6300-6349, if any of those are still available), they will have been refurbished and they are to be used only during weekday am and pm peaks, according to the proposal to acquire them. The fact that they were underpowered should be less of a problem in Winnipeg, given the topography. So it remains to be seen whether the cost, which is less than five new 40 foot buses, makes sense relative to the ongoing maintenance cost.

Would it be correct to assume that these buses will have the regular white livery and not the RT scheme, since they will be used on busier routes all over the city?

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That being said, even if these buses aren't the "pick of the litter" (which I suspect come from 6300-6349, if any of those are still available), they will have been refurbished and they are to be used only during weekday am and pm peaks, according to the proposal to acquire them. The fact that they were underpowered should be less of a problem in Winnipeg, given the topography. So it remains to be seen whether the cost, which is less than five new 40 foot buses, makes sense relative to the ongoing maintenance cost.

Would it be correct to assume that these buses will have the regular white livery and not the RT scheme, since they will be used on busier routes all over the city?

In my opinion as a passenger, the 11 desperately needs them between 6-10pm at Polo Park. Last night around 9pm, the bus had all the seats filled, PLUS the aisles full of standees. Surprisingly, no strollers. Mid-day runs on the 21/47/160 would help too...

And since they're D40LF, most likely white

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I found that article a little biased leaning towards the argument that the buses aren't good and scaring people that they might spontaneously combust at any moment. I think New Flyer is doing a good job here and the buses should be in better condition once refurbished... if not New Flyer will pay the consequences not transit.

As for the routes artics will run on, does the fact that the small suburban branches complicate things for artics (especially for the 11), or no?

The transitway would most likely be the place they want to run the artics, but I do agree that many other routes face similar congestion, like the 11, 18, 47 that do need immediate attention.

But just in all, the Portage ave. corridor just needs to be converted to BRT all together. Having a single route that only stops at the major stops from Downtown to Unicity would take most of the bus loads the 11/21/22/24/67 take. But that's a different story.

The white paint scheme seems most likely, but the rapid scheme is pretty sexy to put on an artic! ;)

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I found that article a little biased leaning towards the argument that the buses aren't good and scaring people that they might spontaneously combust at any moment. I think New Flyer is doing a good job here and the buses should be in better condition once refurbished... if not New Flyer will pay the consequences not transit.

As for the routes artics will run on, does the fact that the small suburban branches complicate things for artics (especially for the 11), or no?

The transitway would most likely be the place they want to run the artics, but I do agree that many other routes face similar congestion, like the 11, 18, 47 that do need immediate attention.

But just in all, the Portage ave. corridor just needs to be converted to BRT all together. Having a single route that only stops at the major stops from Downtown to Unicity would take most of the bus loads the 11/21/22/24/67 take. But that's a different story.

The white paint scheme seems most likely, but the rapid scheme is pretty sexy to put on an artic! ;)

I could see issues for Westwood and Crestview, but St. Charles should be much easier (no left turns near the bus loop). As for Elmwood, no idea.

Honestly for me, Polo Park is the congestion point. The BRT should for-sure go to Polo Park. As for expansions beyond that, make an Assiniboine Park station and make Deer Lodge into a layover point...

As for NFI D60LFs in RT, i cant see it. D60LFR, or better yet, NovaBus artics, I could drool for eons!

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It looks like city council approved the purchase of 20 articulated (I hate that word, "bendy") buses, with Coun. Justin Swandel of St Norbert and Scott Fielding of my own area, St. James, voting against. Also, Mr. Swandel made a scathing rant against David Wardrop, the WT director.

Page B2 of the Free Press today, I'd look it up online, but I need to finish eating my omelette :)

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Actually this didn't go to council vote until today. I think what you're talking about was an EPC (Executive Policy Committee) vote last week. Today it was approved by council with a vote of 13 to 2 (Swandel and Fielding voted against again).

Members of council can surely question Winnipeg Transit (via Wardrop). But from what I've heard over the years, Winnipeg Transit seems to make fairly good decisions with what little money they have.

According to Jen Skerritt's tweets:

"Coun. Swandel says Winnipeg should uses articulated buses to replace some existing buses, instead of adding them to fleet.

otherwise he says it will cost the city more money to replace them when they expire in 8-10 years

Coun. Mayes said transit's director has made it clear they're not lemons. He said it's a good value

Coun. Wyatt says he lives close to New Flyer and will drive the bus there and walk home if there are any problems

"

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According to Jen Skerritt's tweets:

"Coun. Swandel says Winnipeg should uses articulated buses to replace some existing buses, instead of adding them to fleet.

otherwise he says it will cost the city more money to replace them when they expire in 8-10 years

Oh yes, replace existing buse's with 60 footers, with an overcrowded system with ridership gains. By that logic, lets get rid of all the D40s and the 400s, and replace them all, in an already crowded FRG without maintanence capability, with brand new, 60 foot, low-floor, white livery artics when we can barely afford SWRTC and when the Municipal, Provincial and Federal governments cant even agree with funding. *sigh*

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Although I don't live in Winnipeg & don't know how crowded the service may get, but I would asume there's areason Winnipeg transit bought 20 ex OC artics. I'm asuming at good price and I'm assuming to help with transit loads.

The only bissue I can recall is the A/C, when the bus is fully loaded, the engine would over heat if the A/C was on. Now grant you I don't know how hot it gets in Winnipeg during the summer.

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