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TransLink Future - Dream's and Aspirations

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23 minutes ago, NotQuite said:

As a Richmond Resident that spends many hours walking around Richmond, I haveto wonder whether your idea would work.  I find trash tossed on the ground often within feet of trash receptacles.  Not that there are alot of said trash receptacles.

I agree that some people would still abstain from utilizing them, but that's a poor excuse to not change anything. As mentioned earlier, a lot of bus stops do not have any garbage cans, and many of those that do are not emptied often enough, which--again--results in people littering. In each of these two scenarios, people are conditioned into throwing garbage on the ground because they have nowhere else to put it and are not used to having a proper means of disposal (even when one is present). For the record, I know this is BS because I--like many others--hold on to my garbage until I find a proper means of disposal... I am purposefully catering to the lowest common denominator in an effort to mitigate this problem.

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2 minutes ago, Citaro said:

I agree that some people would still abstain from utilizing them, but that's a poor excuse to not change anything. As mentioned earlier, a lot of bus stops do not have any garbage cans, and many of those that do are not emptied often enough, which--again--results in people littering. In each of these two scenarios, people are conditioned into throwing garbage on the ground because they have nowhere else to put it and are not used to having a proper means of disposal (even when one is present). For the record, I know this is BS because I--like many others--hold on to my garbage until I find a proper means of disposal... I am purposefully catering to the lowest common denominator in an effort to mitigate this problem.

Was not saying we should not try.  Just wondering about the future of humanity.  LOL

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4 hours ago, NotQuite said:

As a Richmond Resident that spends many hours walking around Richmond, I haveto wonder whether your idea would work.  I find trash tossed on the ground often within feet of trash receptacles.  Not that there are alot of said trash receptacles.

I've found most Richmond bus stops have them; even if it's just the small ones. Still I find a lot of garbage on the ground beside trash cans/receptacles.

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5 hours ago, NotQuite said:

As a Richmond Resident that spends many hours walking around Richmond, I haveto wonder whether your idea would work.  I find trash tossed on the ground often within feet of trash receptacles.  Not that there are alot of said trash receptacles.

There's a bin at the stop I usually use in Tsawwassen, a pretty big one at that. People are generally good at putting their trash in it, which is good. The problem is that sometimes it goes weeks without being emptied, resulting in overflowing garbage getting all over the place. There's also nothing attaching it to the ground, so every once in a while it'll get knocked over and spill, which isn't pleasant. Would be nice if those issues could be addressed too at some point.

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Just now, ThatBusGuy said:

There's a bin at the stop I usually use in Tsawwassen, a pretty big one at that. People are generally good at putting their trash in it, which is good. The problem is that sometimes it goes weeks without being emptied, resulting in overflowing garbage getting all over the place. There's also nothing attaching it to the ground, so every once in a while it'll get knocked over and spill, which isn't pleasant. Would be nice if those issues could be addressed too at some point.

I like the new Richmond cans; they are nice and modern, made of wood, have garbage, recycling and food waste bins. They are also attached to the ground.

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I dont know how possible this would be, or if someone came up with it already, but I think Commuter rail is possible in Surrey.

Build a spur track to Scott Road, and send trains over via the AmTrak route to either Waterfront or Pacific Central. Scott Road becomes a major station like Waterfront.

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1 hour ago, Express691 said:

I dont know how possible this would be, or if someone came up with it already, but I think Commuter rail is possible in Surrey.

Build a spur track to Scott Road, and send trains over via the AmTrak route to either Waterfront or Pacific Central. Scott Road becomes a major station like Waterfront.

I'm not sure that the exact idea of Commuter rail just to Scott Rd has been proposed, but similar ideas have been around, namely with Rail for the Valley wanting to use the SRY line that runs by Scott Rd station (with a spur to allow transfers to Skytrain there) to provide service from Pacific Central to the Fraser Valley. 

In my future rapid transit map, I have Scott Rd being a terminus for a line from Marpole, a line from Richmond, and a tram line on Kingsway from Vancouver, as well as a stop for a Fraser Valley line from Pacific Central. This would make Scott Rd a hub of sorts with all the lines coming together.

The biggest hold-back to having any more passenger rail service between Surrey and New West/Burnaby/Vancouver is that the current single-track rail bridge which is currently very prone to delays and near capacity. That would need to be upgraded/replaced with a new bridge or tunnel (preferably 3 or 4 tracks to allow for frequent passenger rail in addition to freight) before much of any passenger rail can be added. WCE runs on CP lines, which are double tracked the whole way. That allows for the minimization of delays on WCE. Additionally, multiple railroad companies have access rights for the bridge, including CN, BNSF, Amtrak, SRY, and maybe one more I'm forgetting. This creates a much more complex environment to negotiate exclusive rights during certain times of day for commuter or other passenger rail, especially since the bridge is relatively close to capacity. 
The other main problematic location is the single-track in the Grandview Cut which combined with the rail yards in the False Creek Flats can be prone to having delays as well. 

Basically, it is possible, but upgrades to the Fraser River rail bridge and double-tracking the Grandview Cut would be much desired to allow for regularly on-time trains. Also, I would look at following the SRY to Langley at a minimum since it would be relatively minimal extra cost, but would provide a significant upgrade in transit service for people in Newton, Cloverdale, and Langley.

Lastly, trains would likely go to Pacific Central and not Waterfront, mainly due to the complexities and slow speeds that are required between the spur for Pacific Central and Waterfront. The CN tracks north of Pacific Central have a number of at-grade crossings and a rail yard to pass by, which greatly limits the speed of any train. Additionally, to get to Waterfront, a train would have to switch from CN tracks to CP tracks, and I'm pretty certain there are no such switches at present, the CN rail just crosses 3 CP tracks, but there are no switches between the two. This adds the complexity of having to work with (and convince) both companies to allow for such a switch to be built. It ends up likely being much cheaper and easier to end at Pacific Central Station instead of Waterfront, and people going to Waterfront could still transfer to Skytrain and be at Waterfront in 10 minutes (including transfer time) which would likely be comparable or even faster than having a train terminate directly at Waterfront.

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I haven't had a chance to think about how commuter rail may or may not be possible, so thank you for those thoughts. 

I did have a chance to finish my own dream map, which I've been working on for the last few months. Mainly inspired by improving ideas that are already out there, eg. the 10 year vision. I'll update it as new ideas come. Including commuter rail. It is meant to be realistic in every way except cost, because that gives me something to do when I'm stuck on a bus somewhere. 

 

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I'm currently working on my own dream map, with a rail line that runs every 15 mins peak, 30 mins off peak running from 5 am to 11 pm from Scott Road down to Chiliwack. Or potentially make it a tram train and run it as a streetcar down to Surrey Central.

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19 hours ago, DarkKeyo said:

I haven't had a chance to think about how commuter rail may or may not be possible, so thank you for those thoughts. 

I did have a chance to finish my own dream map, which I've been working on for the last few months. Mainly inspired by improving ideas that are already out there, eg. the 10 year vision. I'll update it as new ideas come. Including commuter rail. It is meant to be realistic in every way except cost, because that gives me something to do when I'm stuck on a bus somewhere. 

One interesting thing I read recently about commuter rail: it's usually costs a very small amount more to run all day service vs just peak. The reason for this being that you already have vehicles, which are sitting there unused, and usually you have to pay operators more for shifts (split or otherwise) that start and end in different places (eg start in Mission, end in Vancouver). The only extra cost for all day service is then the fuel/electricity and probably a little more in operator wages. As long as the reliability and time agreements can be worked out for the tracks, I don't see any reason why all potential commuter lines shouldn't run at least 30 or 60 min frequency all day.

Some questions about your map as I'm always interested in how/why people make their decisions:
1. Why did you choose the False Creek Line to stay on Pacific instead of Davie downtown?
2. For the SFU Extension, do you believe that to be an actual extension of the Hastings line, or a gondola like from Production Way?
3. How/why did you choose routing for presumably tunnelled sections? For example, why did you choose the 41-49 line to route, presumably tunnelled between Fraser and Knight instead of following Knight between 41st and 49th, following 41st to Kingsway, then that to Metrotown, or just routing through Joyce Station? Same goes for a couple sections of the Burnaby N-S line and the Commercial line. Tunnelling is the most expensive option, so the more that it can be avoided (either with elevated or at-grade separate/reserved ROW), the more lines you can build with the same amount of money (quick example, for the same cost of the tunnelled Broadway extension to Arbutus, you could build the line elevated all the way to UBC plus the Arbutus LRT).
4. Why does the Burnaby N-S line avoid Brentwood and go to Gilmore instead?
5. For the Queensborough line, how did you choose your route, and why not have it route along the existing rail ROW the whole way instead of just sections?
6. For the Hastings line, why do you bring it south to Union/Georgia instead of staying on Hastings?
7. More of a recommendation, but for the 4th crossing, I would have it follow Pipeline Rd to Burrard Inlet, then cross jsut east of the Lions Gate to Park Royal since that is planned for a major center and is a main transit exchange.
8. For Richmond B-Line 2, is the line supposed to run along the former rail ROW that is currently a recreational trail? Or do you intend for it to run along Bridgeport or something else?
9. Similar to 3, why do you suggest tunnelling west of Capitol Hill for the Hastings line instead of at-grade or elevated?
10. For the Commercial line, what sections are you referring to when you say LRT won't fit in the corridor, what sections did you have in mind?

22 hours ago, buizel10 said:

I'm currently working on my own dream map, with a rail line that runs every 15 mins peak, 30 mins off peak running from 5 am to 11 pm from Scott Road down to Chiliwack. Or potentially make it a tram train and run it as a streetcar down to Surrey Central.

If it's going to Abbotsford and Chilliwack (and talking about the SRY rail line), I wouldn't worry about going to Surrey Central (assuming there's a line already between Newton and Surrey Central) since most people coming from that far out are probably headed to Vancouver. Ideally, the Fraser rail bridge would get replaced as part of the project so the line could continue to Pacific Central, IMO.

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20 hours ago, maege said:

Some questions about your map as I'm always interested in how/why people make their decisions:

I'm happy to answer in order to help make sure my thought process makes sense.

1. Why did you choose the False Creek Line to stay on Pacific instead of Davie downtown?

Less traffic, continuity with the current route 23, and possible time savings over the 6, which is crowded and slow. I would love to connect it to the station at Denman, but Denman isn't ideal for streetcars with narrow blocks and fairly high traffic. I’ve heard of a plan to also have a streetcar go into Chinatown, but I haven’t thought about how that could work yet.

2. For the SFU Extension, do you believe that to be an actual extension of the Hastings line, or a gondola like from Production Way?

An extension of the Hastings line would be better, but I don't know how 'realistic' going up the side of Burnaby Mountain is compared to a gondola. In the south, a gondola is more practical, but that’s a steeper slope with development along it. I also want to balance the need to serve students with the need to relieve crowded routes, and the 95 west of central Burnaby is always crowded with, but east of it is crowded mainly at student peak times. 

3. How/why did you choose routing for presumably tunneled sections? For example, why did you choose the 41-49 line to route, presumably tunneled between Fraser and Knight instead of following Knight between 41st and 49th, following 41st to Kingsway, then that to Metrotown, or just routing through Joyce Station? Same goes for a couple sections of the Burnaby N-S line and the Commercial line. Tunneling is the most expensive option, so the more that it can be avoided (either with elevated or at-grade separate/reserved ROW), the more lines you can build with the same amount of money (quick example, for the same cost of the tunneled Broadway extension to Arbutus, you could build the line elevated all the way to UBC plus the Arbutus LRT).

I planned this route to work the high ridership on the 25, 41, 43/future B-line, 49, 430N (the commercial line handles 430S), and 100, as well as provide faster travel time E-W across the south half of Vancouver (and Burnaby). ~5 routes become one heavy rail line, rather than, for example, one B-line and 3 articulated high frequency routes as in the 10 year vision. It then becomes connecting the dots for trip generators along those routes, which include connections with north-south FTN routes, UBC, the Canada Line, etc. However, Metrotown is a bigger centre than Joyce, and this is where the Burnaby N-S line connects. If the E-W route ended at Joyce, there would be a lot of transfers on at Joyce and off at Metrotown, and the Expo line’s capacity is a more immediate problem than these ultimate rail lines. This is why there is a switch between 41st and 49th. If the route is LRT, it should probably interline with the Commercial line instead of tunneling under the park, although that adds travel time. Surface LRT would be somewhat slow, and out of place in the higher end housing along parts of 41st and 49th, but a tunnel may be too much.
The Burnaby N-S line mainly replaces the 130, and must connect to BCIT and Metrotown, which don’t line up north-south. The next question covers why it crosses between major roads.
The Commercial Line, if LRT, could probably make a couple of awkward turns between Argyle and Knight, but those have an effect on operation and maintenance, which is also expensive. I guess it could go down Victoria and then over the Fraser River, but that is a two lane road surrounded by housing.
The tunneling vs elevated in your Broadway example comes up in a later question. 

4. Why does the Burnaby N-S line avoid Brentwood and go to Gilmore instead?

The condo developments along Willingdon south of Lougheed, and at Brentwood itself, don't really leave space for an elevated train. The wide empty corridor on Willingdon is being turned into a bike path and park. I would have chosen Willingdon if not for those two factors, and had it interline somehow with the Hastings line (I suppose elevated rail could still go over the pathway). Using Gilmore takes advantage of the wide ROW at Boundary, even with the power lines there, as well as the open space around Still Creek (which would probably be unrealistic environmentally, so I may not stick with that idea.) Any station at Brentwood (Or Gilmore) would have to be incorporated into the developments being planned at those locations. The line would also have to dive underground south of Hastings on Willingdon (see my answer to question 9). It's not apparent from the map, but the N-S line is intended to be mostly elevated between Hastings and Moscrop, even if LRT, and Boundary has better space for a tunnel portal than Willingdon.

5. For the Queensborough line, how did you choose your route, and why not have it route along the existing rail ROW the whole way instead of just sections?

I don't have enough information about Queensborough to know where the best route is, so I guessed. I have it as a tram because the City of New Westminster hopes that it could be a tram one day, and I wanted a connection between the express highway buses and Skytrain. I will eventually have time to go to more of Queensborough in person to get a sense of where things could go. 

6. For the Hastings line, why do you bring it south to Union/Georgia instead of staying on Hastings?

Originally, it was because Hastings doesn't connect smoothly with West Georgia, and then it was to connect with the Canada and Expo lines while keeping a central route through downtown. If Dunsmuir could handle two tunnels, I would route it there. It has a station at Union and Gore to be in between Southeast False Creek development, the new Hospital, Chinatown, and Strathcona. It crosses at Raymur to avoid as many buildings in East Vancouver as possible, even as a fully tunneled route from Stanley Park to Capitol Hill. It's also intended to avoid digging up any part of East Hastings since 

7. More of a recommendation, but for the 4th crossing, I would have it follow Pipeline Rd to Burrard Inlet, then cross just east of the Lions Gate to Park Royal since that is planned for a major center and is a main transit exchange.

I originally had it connected in that way, and then realized that Stanley Park and First Narrows are complicated obstacles, as is the sharp turn west towards Park Royal. It's also very odd imagining a high end mall as a transit exchange, which is an impression I got after I went there for the first time since the mall's redevelopment.

8. For Richmond B-Line 2, is the line supposed to run along the former rail ROW that is currently a recreational trail? Or do you intend for it to run along Bridgeport or something else?

I originally had the Commercial route turn west and connect to Bridgeport Station, which meant not using Bridgeport Rd itself. I'm not sure if that's still a good idea. It depends how much this route needs to be separated from traffic, as Bridgeport Rd is fairly busy. Initially a B-line here would go along Bridgeport Rd just as the 430 does. 

9. Similar to 3, why do you suggest tunneling west of Capitol Hill for the Hastings line instead of at-grade or elevated?

For the same reason that the Millennium Line has to be tunneled under Broadway rather than LRT or Elevated. 4 lane streets with parking, high car and pedestrian usage, and lots of mixed use/commercial development, and which have no parallel street to shift most traffic to, usually require a tunnel to avoid massive disruption, and even then you have to avoid what happened on the equivalent parts of Cambie with the Canada Line. There's a term for that type of street, I just have to remember what it is. On Hastings, that type of street is continuous up until the west slope of Capitol Hill, and then it's probably easier to tunnel under the side of the hill, like the Evergreen line does with Clarke.

It's not apparent in the map, but I suspect that the Cassiar connector would complicate tunneling, so I would elevate the line alongside Hastings Park if I knew how to get it back underground again in time for Kootenay Loop. Kootenay Loop itself, and its location in the turn lane for the right turn lane to Cassiar from Hastings, is the major cause of transit delays and vehicle traffic problems for the entire area. I'm getting very familiar with the morning rush hour problems heading north onto Ironworkers, and, dream rail lines aside, something needs to be done soon to separate buses from vehicle traffic between Boundary, Hastings Park, and Cassiar (aside from the daily detour buses heading to Phibbs take along Renfrew and McGill).
I also just realized that I need to redraw the map at Kootenay Loop because changes I made don’t seem to be there now.

10. For the Commercial line, what sections are you referring to when you say LRT won't fit in the corridor, what sections did you have in mind?

Similar to answer 9, the type of street. However, I’m not sure Skytrain (above ground or underground) is required just for Commercial Drive from Hastings to northern Richmond (and it would have trouble crossing Skytrain at Broadway.) But then you run into the same problem LRT had with West Broadway because of the type of street, especially north of Broadway.  Having a rail route here would be dealing with the crowds on the 20 and 430 and getting buses off of the Knight St Bridge, but I’m not sure how to do so “realistically” yet.

 

The build order for my ideas after the 10 year vision, including 4 new B-lines on routes I have here as rail, would start with the Hastings line from Denman to Kootenay, along with the crossing from Kootenay to Phibbs, plus a B-line on the Burnaby N-S route. Also, Skytrain from UBS to Arbutus.

That ended up being a very long post. Sorry.

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