H5s & H6s Being Sold

[T3G]

In Moscow too. Too bad ttc is so poor. :/

Has nothing to do with being poor. Bratislava's system is not exactly showered with money, but they manage to keep a sizeable historical collection as well. There were no less than 3 Tatra K2 vehicles (the articulated cousin of the famous T3 tram) preserved following their retirement, as well as countless buses and relatively unimportant vehicles. And even a T3, despite the fact that there are still 138 in service to this day, and will be for the considerable future.

I don't know exactly what factors are involved, but the fact that it wasn't the TTC themselves that preserved the G1s and M1s is very telling. I would assume one of the factors is that if there were only two preserved, then there wouldn't be nearly enough to make up a full train, and so they wouldn't be good for much else but laying around the yard all day. Again, not an issue in New York - they ordered a lot of stock compatible with each other, so they can run full length trains any time they wish (see the Train of Many Colors).

Yes I know they can only be preserved after retirement, hence I said they're still too young, implying its not time to worry about preserving one yet. If the ttc doesn't preserve any h's and come 2025ish preserves a t1, that'd be a huge slap in the face. Probably won't happen. And yes I did get as many h5/6 rides pics and vids (including h6 final) as possible, I did the most on my behalf. No worries.

How can it be possible that the preservation of a T1 is a slap in the face? If anything, it'd be case of deciding that the T1s were more significant, historically, than the H-series cars. I don't personally agree with it - the H's lasted 49 years after all - but then, if I had my way there would be one of each H-series car preserved, an idea with loads of issues in a city like Toronto, so what do I know. Again, car preservation is not dictated by what the fans think is nice but what is considered to have been an important part of subway transport in the city. To use a bus example, I would have liked to see a D901 preserved, but they were just a minor blip in Toronto's transit history - not like the famous Fishbowl, for example, which was more than worthy of being added to the historical collection.

Then there's the equally likely scenario that there may just be circumstances when the T1's retirement comes around that allow for their preservation, that just weren't around then the H series were being retired. An unfortunate truth of transit preservation is that not everything can be saved, as a result of a variety of factors. Space, budget, etc etc. And I would bet good money that if a T1 is preserved, it won't be on TTC property but at the HCRR.

[Robert Lubinski]

The H6's are fast and beautiful trains (as are the H5's), they have their charms, no matter how much you hate on them for their unreliability (plus, it's not like they'd break down every 50 m, they ran back and forth on the line everyday for 27 years). As for the Gloucesters, they are slow, outdated (and overrated ), and had no ac. It was about time for them to go anyways. Luckily for all the fans of those ancient trains, they were preserved. Unfortunately none of the H's were. And yes there are at least a couple of H6's still sitting at the far end at Wilson yard, saving a set before it's too late would be a good move.

Response:

The G trains were outdated on the first day they were in service, but they ran reliably for 36 years. Their time was up and they were retired. M cars ran reliably for 36 years as well, and their time was up. Lots of people on here loved the H-4s, but they were worn out and overdue for retirement. Nothing overrated about any of those trains to last that long. Time was up for the H-6s. If you're that passionate to save them, get out your wallet and buy them from the scrapper and then find a place to keep them. You'll find that preservation is an expensive business. Preservation at museums isn't just for fans of particular vehicles, it's for what's historic. Not every class of G train, PCC car or Witt car was saved. Funds and space are limited, so people have to make choices about what gets preserved. Subway cars are long and take up a lot of indoor space, which is costly to build and maintain. Want more stuff preseved? Join the museum and make a financial contribution, lobby your politicians to provide funding to the museum or provide funding to the TTC for its own museum, make some effort, but don't just sit on your keypad complaining that nobody is saving your favourite cars. Fans would love to see one of everything preserved, but reality gets in the way of all that.

[D. DeLarge]

Priorities. A historical fleet doesn't seem to have been much of a priority with the TTC, probably partially because a lot of notable stuff traditionally ended up at the HCRY. Outside of the Witt and PCC pair, the TTC has never really kept any kind of historical vehicle collection themselves. They don't keep any historical buses, which would probably be easier to keep and store than subway cars (the two fishbowls set aside for preservation being only a recent exception). Look at all the bus stuff retired recently that was for the most part entirely scrapped - the fleets of D901's, D40-88/89, Orion V, Orion VI, Classics, Orion II's, all the varieties of New Look, and even older stuff like the Ikarus Orion III artics, GM Artics, Flyer D800's, trolleybuses, etc. Once in a while something gets donated to the HCRY or CTHF, and a few vehicles might get sold to private interests, but for the most part everything goes.

It's not any better (in fact, worse) for subway cars: equipment designed to the TTC's specs, that can't just be run anywhere like a bus, and must operate under certain conditions (electrified 3rd rail, floor-level platforms, clearance and other issues). I'd argue aside from the "Red Rocket" G's, to the public subway cars are just tin-cans without the aesthetics or vintage appeal that the PCC's have. Aside from token donations of the first operating G's and the first Canadian-built M cars, no other G's, M's and H's were preserved - the vast majority scrapped. The last 4 G-cars in work service (including the last two aluminum G2's) were all sold for scrap a few years back with nary a whisper of preservation.

The big question is what would they (the TTC) do with say a train of H4's, H6's or T1's? The public wants modern trains in service, and reliability drops as equipment ages. You can't exactly take them around a scenic or obscure part of Toronto for charters or photos (limited to the subway network), or run them in the annual Christmas parade or special event downtown. It's expensive as hell to charter them, and aside from Lower Bay you can't park them at any station for photos along the line - they're used on constantly active lines. A spare pool of parts needs to be maintained, and you need to have at least some mechanics and operators trained on fixing and operating them. An unnecessary hassle if you're operating a transit system whose sole purpose is to transport people, and not preserve every single equipment example you've owned.

[noahrp24]

I was reading a report on the bids for scrapyards and future Enterprises isn't on the list so they're out. Ram iron and steel and another company was there.

[Downsview 108]

Priorities. A historical fleet doesn't seem to have been much of a priority with the TTC, probably partially because a lot of notable stuff traditionally ended up at the HCRY. Outside of the Witt and PCC pair, the TTC has never really kept any kind of historical vehicle collection themselves. They don't keep any historical buses, which would probably be easier to keep and store than subway cars (the two fishbowls set aside for preservation being only a recent exception). Look at all the bus stuff retired recently that was for the most part entirely scrapped - the fleets of D901's, D40-88/89, Orion V, Orion VI, Classics, Orion II's, all the varieties of New Look, and even older stuff like the Ikarus Orion III artics, GM Artics, Flyer D800's, trolleybuses, etc. Once in a while something gets donated to the HCRY or CTHF, and a few vehicles might get sold to private interests, but for the most part everything goes.

It's not any better (in fact, worse) for subway cars: equipment designed to the TTC's specs, that can't just be run anywhere like a bus, and must operate under certain conditions (electrified 3rd rail, floor-level platforms, clearance and other issues). I'd argue aside from the "Red Rocket" G's, to the public subway cars are just tin-cans without the aesthetics or vintage appeal that the PCC's have. Aside from token donations of the first operating G's and the first Canadian-built M cars, no other G's, M's and H's were preserved - the vast majority scrapped. The last 4 G-cars in work service (including the last two aluminum G2's) were all sold for scrap a few years back with nary a whisper of preservation.

The big question is what would they (the TTC) do with say a train of H4's, H6's or T1's? The public wants modern trains in service, and reliability drops as equipment ages. You can't exactly take them around a scenic or obscure part of Toronto for charters or photos (limited to the subway network), or run them in the annual Christmas parade or special event downtown. It's expensive as hell to charter them, and aside from Lower Bay you can't park them at any station for photos along the line - they're used on constantly active lines. A spare pool of parts needs to be maintained, and you need to have at least some mechanics and operators trained on fixing and operating them. An unnecessary hassle if you're operating a transit system whose sole purpose is to transport people, and not preserve every single equipment example you've owned.

Perfect example was that 2900 series fishbowl that was being used as a hoist test bus (still in maroon and cream) that was scrapped in 2001 (IIRC).

[Xtrazsteve]

They should make them into restaurants instead. Imagine a TR restaurant one day.

Don't think it will ever happen. The cost of metal has raised to the point that it would be a waste if they don't scrap them.

[D. DeLarge]

Perfect example was that 2900 series fishbowl that was being used as a hoist test bus (still in maroon and cream) that was scrapped in 2001 (IIRC).

TTC 920, ex-2920

[Bus_Medic]

Just because some people enjoy this hobby doesn't make them autistic. They are normal people just like any other "normal people on board", just with an interest others can't relate to, and as T6A5 pointed out,

I stand behind my original post.

They themselves are archaic junk, barbaric people in a country of crime, war, and lawlessness. >

now who's stereotyping, eh?

[Downsview 108]

Edited

[81-717]

Delete

[Archer]

Do the world a favour and kiss the 3rd rail.

You seriously just told someone they should commit suicide? The hell is wrong with you?

[noahrp24]

Do the world a favour and kiss the 3rd rail.

I don't mean to be rude and to go off topic but your picture and title shows that you care about the bible a lot and I don't recall the bible to tell someone to go kill themselves.

[Downsview 108]

You are both right.

I apologize

[Tom1122]

Let me remind you that H-5s 5706/07 are owned by a TV/movie company so they're sort of preserved. Plus the TTC still has three H-1s kicking around as work cars including the very first Hawker which is paired with an H-4 (RT-14 and RT-15).

Remember that HCRR was formed by 6-7 people who didn't want to see car #1326 scrapped. Perhaps if some people got together and found some land, we could built a subway museum.

[D. DeLarge]

Let me remind you that H-5s 5706/07 are owned by a TV/movie company so they're sort of preserved. Plus the TTC still has three H-1s kicking around as work cars including the very first Hawker which is paired with an H-4 (RT-14 and RT-15).

Remember that HCRR was formed by 6-7 people who didn't want to see car #1326 scrapped. Perhaps if some people got together and found some land, we could built a subway museum.

No, they're not preserved. They'll be kept as long as they're needed, and when they are of no use anymore will likely be sold for scrap.

The TTC having H-series workcars is also hardly preservation - again, kept as long as they're useful and needed, and then sold for scrap - like the last two G1 and G2 work cars they had.

There's a distinction between "preserving" or saving something, and keeping it around for continued use. It's like the TTC operating all those rebuilt fishbowls a few years ago - not preserved, kept until replaced or beyond repair, and then retired & sold for scrap. The two that were specifically set aside can be considered "preserved" (loosely at this point - they're merely set aside), but the spare fish kept for parts (2345) can't really be.

[FlyerD901]

Oh well, at least TTC got paid....right?

[81-717]

Quelle surprise...

[Finch East]

So where and when will those H5 cars be scrapped????????

[TheAverageJoe]

Final Update on the H5's

The project to refurbish and ship 75 cars to Lagos, Nigeria has been abandoned. The cars currently stored in the US are to be scrapped shortly.

I saw about 4-5 cars in the Port of Buffalo area with one of them being cut up the others stored on my way to the Erie County fair . Was not able to get pics. It is off of Route 5 in a well fenced in lot, way back from the road on the west side almost right up on Lake Erie.

So where and when will those H5 cars be scrapped????????

Starting now at the Warehouse in the Port of Buffalo area

[Finch East]

Damn so that leaves 5706/07 (correct me if I'm wrong). One of them lies at St.Clair and Danforth and where is the other one ?

[T3G]

A shame, but not surprising.

Damn so that leaves 5706/07 (correct me if I'm wrong). One of them lies at St.Clair and Danforth and where is the other one ?

The cars remaining are 5707 and one from the pair 5734/35. 5707 currently resides in Hamilton.

[81-717]

Actually, it is surprising. How the bloody hell did they wait so long and suddenly bail at the last minute!? I would've thought the cars have already been shipped to Lagos and about to enter service. So much cheaper too than the crap they'll end up getting

[IRT_BMT_IND]

According to a BBC News report I heart a few weeks ago they're looking at buying new trains from China now.

[ttc rider]

According to a BBC News report I heart a few weeks ago they're looking at buying new trains from China now.

Apparently, a contract to that effect has been signed already: http://www.blackborderbuild.com/nigeria-updates/lamata-opts-for-chinese-trains-for-the-lagos-light-rail

[Xtrazsteve]

According to a BBC News report I heart a few weeks ago they're looking at buying new trains from China now.

This was known for over a year now. If they buy from China, they get brand new trains. Much better than those moisty H5s. The people would appreciate new trains too for all the money they are spending.