Jump to content

Recommended Posts

8 hours ago, MAX BRT said:

This article says that Santa Cruz Metro is getting Proterra and Gillig electric buses. No mention of BYD.

https://www.santacruzsentinel.com/2019/10/09/metro-receives-training-on-zero-emission-buses/

Oh well I guess byd has some updating to do with then! And I read that article and honestly I really love the proterra more than that awful gillig brt platform mainly cause I’ve been riding those buses all my life cause that’s what samtrans has decided to own basically I’m sick of it

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, MVTArider said:

 

A Protato would look pretty good in the MUNI scheme.

I'm curious to see what will happen with ADL as well. ADL seems to be doing alright offering the 200EV in the UK with BYD propulsion. Ones I rode all seemed to run great and I haven't heard of any issues. However Foothill is going with a propulsion from Proterra on their Enviro 500.

I agree I think a Proterra and a New Flyer would look great with Muni’s portfolio of trolley buses and hybrid buses hope they get both 

 

And ADL is every interesting to me cause they’re owned by New Flyer but yet they use propulsion systems from BYD and Proterra I dunno why but it sounds like fire and water combining to me

  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, MVTArider said:

Honestly from a practical standpoint I'd be more concerned about foreign interference in our personal autos. Wrecking operational havoc via software hacks on Random City USA's transit system isn't going to do a whole lot aside from the major metropolitan regions. Causing mass disruption on a country-wide level by hacking our cars via the imported tech installed would be more noticeable and cause significant issues.

Who needs imported tech?

 

Both Lexus and Tesla - to name but two - use domestically-sourced over-the-air-updateable firmware in their vehicles.

 

I highly doubt that just because their systems are domestically-sourced that they are any more or less hackable than anyone else's tech. And over-the-air attacks have been tested and proven in a number of other manufacturers' vehicles already.

 

Dan

  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
19 hours ago, Frozen Yogurt said:

Why should Canadian buses run down the streets without hassle, in the same logic? Can't the RCMP use the "cameras and sensors" to monitor Americans as well? The Forbes article says it "benefits competitors such as Gillig, Proterra and New Flyer"... no mention of New Flyer being foreign as well? What's that double standard?

Are you really comparing a Canadian company to a Chinese company? 🤦‍♂️

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 12/17/2019 at 8:27 PM, Frozen Yogurt said:

Could you expand a bit on what "healthy" means?

As for "security risk"... seriously? If this gets passed today, tomorrow we can use the same argument to expel all Chinese students. Or to deport all Chinese immigrants.

Also, how are we sure that the cameras/sensors are not locally sourced and have nothing to do with China? The cameras are for the benefit of the transit company, if you're so skeptical then don't order them from factory and install it in your garage!

Why should Canadian buses run down the streets without hassle, in the same logic? Can't the RCMP use the "cameras and sensors" to monitor Americans as well? The Forbes article says it "benefits competitors such as Gillig, Proterra and New Flyer"... no mention of New Flyer being foreign as well? What's that double standard?

Whether BYD or CRRC or Huawei or whatever it should be aimed at the specific company... not categorizing things and discriminate them...

 

I can see your point to a certain extent and as I've previously stated, it almost seems paranoid and conspiratorial to assume that a company like BYD will do unscrupulous spying, etc. just because they are subsidized by the Chinese government.   Possible?  ...sure.  Probable?, I"m not positive.

However, there is a distinct difference between China and Canada and that being one is a political adversary and the other is a friendly trading partner and considered a political ally (pertaining to the U.S.).   China is a communist regime and although the U.S. does a huge amount of trade with China, they are not an ally.  

Will BYD products have secret surveillance forced into their coaches coming out of the Lancaster California plant?  I doubt it but I guess our trusty politicians are concerned that they will  ...??

No matter one's personal thoughts as it pertains to trade with China, I can see both sides.  Yes, perhaps we should abandon BYD in North America entirely and not allow its products to be sold or produced here.  Myself, I believe we are in a global economy and have always believed in competition.   I prefer to buy a car made in North America from Ford, GM, or FCA but have purchased Japanese and German cars in the past as I felt they were a better product.   If BYD eventually produces a better product for less cost than Proterra,  why not buy BYD buses?

Therefore, my initial feeling probably is winning on this  ...since BYD-USA is an autonomous entity, or at least semi-autonomous, let them compete as they are providing jobs for Americans.  Lancaster is a rather depressed town as it is.  If BYD leaves, it will certainly be worse.   As previously noted, BYD employs almost 1,000 workers at Lancaster and also provides jobs for workers at facilities providing U.S. made components at other locations in the country  --as well as auxiliary jobs in the Lancaster community that would be lost should the BYD plant close.

It would be an entirely different story and I might be worried about, spying, surveillance, hacking, etc.,  if the buses were being exported from plants in China to be used in the U.S.   That is not currently the case. 

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So I came across a short video of one of TTC’S BYD buses and I have to say it’s not really a looker 

I just screenshot it cause I wasn’t able to post the link for some reason but it’s there though just search up TTC BYD and it’s the first result 

C27DC90D-49A0-482E-A954-91FB9AFAA5C6.png

  • Like 1
  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 12/20/2019 at 3:38 AM, roamer said:

 

It would be an entirely different story and I might be worried about, spying, surveillance, hacking, etc.,  if the buses were being exported from plants in China to be used in the U.S.   That is not currently the case. 

Enough with this spying paranoia. I would be more concerned about your own government spying on you than the Chinese government. 

  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 hours ago, Someguy3071 said:

Enough with this spying paranoia. I would be more concerned about your own government spying on you than the Chinese government. 

Where is roamers' paranoia?? My emphasis added where he in fact disagreed with said paranoia. 

"I can see your point to a certain extent and as I've previously stated, it almost seems paranoid and conspiratorial to assume that a company like BYD will do unscrupulous spying, etc. just because they are subsidized by the Chinese government.   Possible?  ...sure.  Probable?, I"m not positive."

  • Like 2
  • Thanks 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I just want to say this 

I think Chinese investment into the United States and Canada is bad Given the political climate and circumstance

tax dollars both federal and local are being wasted on buying CRRC rolling stock and BYD buses 

it is very unfortunate that all over the world transit companies are shelling out thousands of (insert currency here) instead of infrastructure or making their transit companies better in some way shape or form or the inferior “BRT” On these buses built by BYD and numerous others 

honesty this being from a enthusiast of New Flyer living in a region dominated by unbearable Gillig buses When it comes to buses it is always better to buy local. By that the Xe40, 35, and 60, Novabuses electric bus, Gillig electric-something, and  new player to the bus game proterra haven’t gone down with a single problem or wasted tax payers money tremendously . Yes byd is Makes their buses in the States and in the provinces but being the fact I can search up the Paris RATP or Israel’s EGG bus company and see the BYD k9 I really don’t consider BYD’s here in North America Canadian or American 

I guess my main point is I am very disappointed with Marin Transit, Soltrans, Sonoma Transit, Suntran, LADOT, Santa Barbara MTD, Tri-Delta Transit, Long Beach Transit , and WSDOT for purchasing these controversial lemons

Honestly I think a very run-down early-to-mid-to-late 1990s D40lf would run better than a byd base level K9 like it’s seen better days 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

A couple of thoughts:

Yes, BYD's may be problematic buses; but why not give them more time to improve their products?

As of the "unbearable Gillig buses" in your home area, I really think it's natural for most SF Bay area agencies to consider them as first choice buses; since Gillig is situated right at their background at Livermore. 

The Bay area is far from the only part of the country dominated by them.  The states of Colorado, Florida, Pennsylvania (outside SEPTA and State College, where New Flyer's dominate) and Washington (outside the Seattle metro area, where there is a significant New Flyer presence) are just a few examples.

If you feel Gillig buses are unbearable, please feel free to explain why at the Gillig discussion thread.  Any concrete evidence will be appreciated.

Bottom line: You may be a New Flyer fanboy (You'll probably love the fleet policies at Muni and WMATA, since they buy nothing but New Flyer's of late; and you'll probably love wall-to-wall New Flyer's at CTA, LACMTA, MBTA, NYCMTA and SEPTA), but any criticisms on other brands in general should be strictly based on their operational merits instead of sweeping, politically-based conclusions.

I really hope there will be an end to these emotionally-charged and borderline conspiracy-filled rants.  No particular brand deserves to be singled out like this.

  • Like 2
  • Thanks 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 hours ago, Buzz2kb said:

A couple of thoughts:

Yes, BYD's may be problematic buses; but why not give them more time to improve their products?

As of the "unbearable Gillig buses" in your home area, I really think it's natural for most SF Bay area agencies to consider them as first choice buses; since Gillig is situated right at their background at Livermore. 

The Bay area is far from the only part of the country dominated by them.  The states of Colorado, Florida, Pennsylvania (outside SEPTA and State College, where New Flyer's dominate) and Washington (outside the Seattle metro area, where there is a significant New Flyer presence) are just a few examples.

If you feel Gillig buses are unbearable, please feel free to explain why at the Gillig discussion thread.  Any concrete evidence will be appreciated.

Bottom line: You may be a New Flyer fanboy (You'll probably love the fleet policies at Muni and WMATA, since they buy nothing but New Flyer's of late; and you'll probably love wall-to-wall New Flyer's at CTA, LACMTA, MBTA, NYCMTA and SEPTA), but any criticisms on other brands in general should be strictly based on their operational merits instead of sweeping, politically-based  conclusions.

I really hope there will be an end to these emotionally-charged and borderline conspiracy-filled rants.  No particular brand deserves to be singled out like this.

It is just my saying but if anybody in North America were to give BYD a chance to prove then why is it all over the world, developed or not, byds in service are going fine without any issues whatsoever? 
 

it’s only here where ABQ Ride and LACMTA have running problems 

where Denver RTD’s electric mall shuttles are costing a rate higher than the previous fleet of shuttles

and where Proterra and New Flyer delivered their electric buses on schedule to the TTC but BYD delivering theirs in a delayed manner

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

Long Beach Transit (LBT), a longstanding customer of BYD’s, will purchase an additional 14 K9M 40-foot, battery-electric transit buses from the company.

LBT’s board voted to increase the number of BYD buses in its fleet from 10 to 24. The agency purchased its first BYD buses in 2015.

The battery-electric, zero-emission K9M has 37 seats, a range of 155 miles, and can be rapidly charged in 4.5 to 5 hours.

The buses will be built at BYD’s Coach & Bus factory in Lancaster, Calif. With this purchase, BYD has now sold more than 470 electric buses to customers in Southern California including airports, universities, private operators, and transit agencies.

https://www.metro-magazine.com/zero-emissions/news/736988/calif-s-long-beach-transit-adding-14-more-byd-battery-electric-buses

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think we need to ban BYD and CRRC from North America and subsidize American made Gillig and Proterra to produce electric buses more cheaper

 

Yes there could be a great loss of jobs but it is better to lose a small amount of jobs than massive industries worth of jobs- oh wait that’s happened with GM mainly and almost nearly every other industry that can move or moved to China, 

Plus on the CRRC side of it (Yes I know it’s about BYD buses on this forum but they’re pretty much controversial) I think the rail cars SEPTA ordered and the subway cars Both and unfortunately the CTA and MBTA ordered are going to be death traps 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 hours ago, Samtransxmuni said:

I think we need to ban BYD and CRRC from North America and subsidize American made Gillig and Proterra to produce electric buses more cheaper

Is this based on racist and xenophobic fear mongering, or is there some actual logical reason to it?

 

One thing to consider is that BYD has become a world leader - whether you want to believe it or not - in battery-electric storage and propulsion for heavy road vehicles. And they are certainly doing things that no one else is doing, so shutting them out may be to the detriment of your own technological prowess.

 

And hell, if you're going to ban them, why stop there? Who else would you ban? You realize that a very healthy chunk of Boeing's fuselage production takes place in China, right? Would you prevent that from happening?

 

10 hours ago, Samtransxmuni said:

Plus on the CRRC side of it (Yes I know it’s about BYD buses on this forum but they’re pretty much controversial) I think the rail cars SEPTA ordered and the subway cars Both and unfortunately the CTA and MBTA ordered are going to be death traps 

Based on what, exactly? Your extensive knowledge of the rail industry?

 

Dan

  • Like 5
  • Haha 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, smallspy said:

Is this based on racist and xenophobic fear mongering, or is there some actual logical reason to it?

 

One thing to consider is that BYD has become a world leader - whether you want to believe it or not - in battery-electric storage and propulsion for heavy road vehicles. And they are certainly doing things that no one else is doing, so shutting them out may be to the detriment of your own technological prowess.

 

And hell, if you're going to ban them, why stop there? Who else would you ban? You realize that a very healthy chunk of Boeing's fuselage production takes place in China, right? Would you prevent that from happening?

 

Based on what, exactly? Your extensive knowledge of the rail industry?

 

Dan

It’s all based on buying local in my opinion plus a bit of the notion of the red scare I just don’t like them or trust them 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Samtransxmuni said:

It’s all based on buying local in my opinion plus a bit of the notion of the red scare I just don’t like them or trust them 

So....racism then.

 

Dan

  • Like 6

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Samtransxmuni said:

No not at all it’s political 

No, what you've been saying amounts to Xenophobia, with a good dose of fear mongering.  This thread and forum as a whole are  here to discuss specific type of services and very specific products, and companies.  If you want to talk about CCCP and your fears take that elsewhere, we're here to have a discussion about BYD and their electric busses.

Personally I'm not a fan of their vehicles as their demo unit we had with Translink didn't really meet spec.  It had build quality/reliability issues, and range issues.  If BYD fixed the issues we had with our test, then I would have no problem with them operating on our streets. 

  • Thanks 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Update on BYD buses performance in Indianapolis (Red Line articulated electric buses)

(quote) “The total acquisition for the 31 buses was approximately $40 million,” said Evans. “A portion of that are federal dollars as well as our local commitment as well. We have not paid BYD for those buses. We have had them in our possession for over a year. They have requested payment but we have reminded them that they signed a contract with IndyGo to produce a bus that could go 275 miles. That bus is not doing that at this time.”

On their best days last fall, when Red Line service was free and the weather was warm, the BYD buses averaged 200-250 miles between charges, far short of the 275-mile average promise and likely above what the buses are getting now that wintertime temperatures in Indianapolis often dip below freezing. (unquote)

Source: https://fox59.com/2020/02/13/indygo-admits-stumbling-start-to-red-line-launch/

Perhaps of the most interest, the article seems to say that federal funds will not be available to buy BYD buses after 2022. I wasn't aware that provision had passed into law.  

200-250 miles is a lot of variability. Driver skill plays a big part in that I am sure. You need to accelerate slowly and evenly and maximize regenerative braking to increase range. 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think trump signed the NDAA into law back in December.  There are a lot of ins-and-outs to the provisions and it does mention the two year delay  ...it also contains certain grandfathering clauses.  This portion of the Act had bi-partisan support as it passed through both the house and the senate as we've previously discussed. 

Here's one of the better summaries I've seen that gives a synopsis of the bill:

Final Defense Bill Bans New Purchases of Mass Transit Vehicles from Chinese Companies

 

  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 2/14/2020 at 11:43 AM, MAX BRT said:

 

200-250 miles is a lot of variability. Driver skill plays a big part in that I am sure. You need to accelerate slowly and evenly and maximize regenerative braking to increase range. 

When they estimate range on these buses it should be done with the bus being driven as hard as possible and without efforts of trying to maximize the range. That is the true range of the bus that will account for variety of driving styles. 

I think most drivers are not interested in having to severely modify their driving style to try to squeeze out a few more miles out of these buses. Sometimes you can take it easy and accelerate slowly but other times you have to be hard on the throttle and move quickly.  So the range of those buses is 200 miles. Anything over that is a bonus. 

 

  • Like 1
  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
21 hours ago, Someguy3071 said:

When they estimate range on these buses it should be done with the bus being driven as hard as possible and without efforts of trying to maximize the range. That is the true range of the bus that will account for variety of driving styles. 

But that's not a reasonable expectation of what these things can do.

 

To use the example of a Tesla Model S P100D - they claim that it can achieve about 375 miles on a charge, and there are some people who have been able to recreate that number in real-world situations. But doing things such as repeatedly engaging the "ludicrous" launch mode and driving it around a track will reduce that range down to 60 miles or less.

 

And let's be honest, most people won't do that. But it does show just how variable the difference in range can be.

 

The real answer is somewhere in the middle and yet closer to the top-end of the range, but without the mileage, time or data to get accurate numbers, all we have to work with is the marketing wank. The fact of the matter is that the range will be somewhat variable as humans are not machines, and we all drive differently in different situations. And not only that, but the different locations where they operate will also greatly affect the range of these things, as will things such as climate, and even the settings/modes that the various properties choose on the vehicles.

 

(For the record, the same variations in range exist with ICEs - but again, most people aren't aware of it.)

 

Dan

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Why are you comparing a Tesla Model S launching in ludicrous mode to a bus accelerating to speed of traffic? One has absolutely nothing to do with the other.

It is very reasonable for a bus to do heavy acceleration to get up to speed. And yes different drivers will drive a bus in a different ways. That's why testing needs to be done to determine the range when driven hard. This will account for all different driving styles. I'm talking about practical not theoretical range. 

When I drive a bus I don't care if it's a hybrid or diesel. I get in and I drive. We have some buses that stay out for close to 24 hours and they'll be driven from 3 to 6 different drivers. Every driver can drive the crap out of that bus and it will make it to the end without running out of fuel. Now granted these electric buses won't be staying out for 24 hours but if you have to start limiting how you drive to get close to advertised range, then it's an inferior product for the job. 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Even though I retired long before battery electric buses were introduced, I've heard from those who work a several agencies that have them that it's definitely emphasized during training and after at how to obtain maximum efficiency while driving as it is much more important --contrasted to driving a diesel-- that maximum efficiency be obtained so that the charge can be sustained for the longest time possible.  

One driver told me, and I won't mention the agency he works for, that management is monitoring each driver's acceleration and braking habits as it pertains to charge-used and he was worried that at some point, they'd start discipline procedures on those drivers who appear to be consistently ignoring the procedures given during training.  He was saying the Union was looking at it but haven't heard from him lately as to what's going on there.  

I'm glad I no longer drive a bus as I don't like walking that thin line of trying to squeeze maximum efficiency from the equipment and the fact that driving aggressively is required at times to keep a schedule. 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

What you are saying about monitoring of the bus rings true. I know that there is a trend in commercial fleets to have Telematics active on the bus, sending all kinds of info about the vehicle to the driver and to management. Management is keen to use this kind of thing to inspire desirable driving behavior on the part of drivers. Its probably especially important for an electric bus like BYD, because range is limited and efficiency becomes more important.

As an off-topic aside, I hope that this kind of monitoring will reduce rough driving. I know I've noticed as a bus passenger that certain driver's accelerate and brake abruptly and it makes for an unpleasant ride for the passenger.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×
×
  • Create New...