BYD "E-Bus"

[smallspy]

12 hours ago, MiWay0310 said:

That too, but I did some more snooping around, and I found out exactly where I got it from. Old news, but here goes:

https://www.busworld.org/articles/detail/1163

I'm surprised why parallel systems haven't gotten as popular as serial hybrids...I mean sure, a BAE is fine on downtown routes, but have you ever heard one of those things at 45+ kph? I haven't even mentioned the highway. Quite sure a parallel would be more fuel efficient, especially, say a parallel B500R at higher speeds.

In theory, a serial hybrid system will be far more efficient than a parallel one. Electric transmissions are always much more efficient than mechanical ones. The internal combustion engine is free to operate at its most optimal range of speeds, rather than being tied to a factor of the road speed of the vehicle.

 

The problem is with the components. Allison has been making transmissions for about a hundred years, so they have a very good handle on what needs to be done to make it reliable. (And the same goes for Voith and anyone else making parallel hybrid systems.) And adding two small electric motors isn't going to drastically change the construction, quality, form factor or utility of that transmission - at its core, it's still just a mechanical transmission.

 

Serial hybrids, however, are a much newer concept in the form factor required to fit a bus or motorcoach, and so it's been a tougher thing to design and fit the various devices into the spaces available - and more so still to get them mature enough to be reliable for every day use.

 

Dan

[Doppelkupplung]

Won't parallel systems require some sort of plug-in capability, since the diesel motor isn't acting as a generator?

[MAX BRT]

2 hours ago, MiWay0310 said:

Won't parallel systems require some sort of plug-in capability, since the diesel motor isn't acting as a generator?

I believe parallel system hybrid buses that exist today are essentially traditional vehicles, just with a small battery for storing braking energy and a small electric motor to put the energy to use for acceleration. Its like a traditional Prius--not a battery electric vehicle.

Volvo does have plug-in hybrid buses in Europe, but I believe they use a series, not a parallel system. They are primarily electric vehicles.

[WMATAC40LF]

20 hours ago, MiWay0310 said:

I'm surprised why parallel systems haven't gotten as popular as serial hybrids...I mean sure, a BAE is fine on downtown routes, but have you ever heard one of those things at 45+ kph? I haven't even mentioned the highway. Quite sure a parallel would be more fuel efficient, especially, say a parallel B500R at higher speeds.

Who said parallels aren't as popular? Outside of Quebec and places like Toronto, NYC, San Fransisco, and Seattle, most hybrid buses that I know of use parallel systems. Think of how many smaller US systems have gotten Gilligs with the Allison System (not to mention the larger systems that have also ordered Allison Hybrid buses).

As you said, how a system plans to use a hybrid bus should be a factor in determining which system to buy (although this isn't always the case). Series hybrid buses are better suited for downtown or neighborhood routes with lower speeds and frequent stops. Parallel hybrid buses have more of an advantage when it comes to suburban routes with higher speeds and less stops.

[Doppelkupplung]

4 hours ago, WMATAC40LF said:

Who said parallels aren't as popular? Outside of Quebec and places like Toronto, NYC, San Fransisco, and Seattle, most hybrid buses that I know of use parallel systems. Think of how many smaller US systems have gotten Gilligs with the Allison System (not to mention the larger systems that have also ordered Allison Hybrid buses).

I have no idea why I didn't mention, or even acknowledge the Allison Ep Series (been kinda distracted recently), but yes, usually suburban-focused systems go with the parallels. Don't forget NYC on the list of series hybrids though. 

4 hours ago, WMATAC40LF said:

Parallel hybrid buses have more of an advantage when it comes to suburban routes with higher speeds and less stops.

Many drivers seem to like the smoothness of parallels at higher speeds. 

[tommike]

norway have 2 byd articulated buses now so how far can they go?

[Doppelkupplung]

32 minutes ago, tommike said:

norway have 2 byd articulated buses now so how far can they go?

A claimed "250km". 

[M. Parsons]

4 hours ago, MiWay0310 said:

I have no idea why I didn't mention, or even acknowledge the Allison Ep Series (been kinda distracted recently), but yes, usually suburban-focused systems go with the parallels. Don't forget NYC on the list of series hybrids though. 

Many drivers seem to like the smoothness of parallels at higher speeds. 

I'm prepared to call bullshit on that. At higher speeds does the Allison Ep not operate in a strictly diesel mode, therefore, shifts like any other transmission, negating any benefits of a electric transmission? Certainly, at the lower end where the electic motor is in use for propulsion it's a bit smoother.

Anyone have a link to Voith's hybrid parallel products? I couldn't find one. Greatly appreciated.

Personally, I think the parelllel hyrbid is a crock of crap.

I get the series hybrid and think it's the best concept. and, indeed perhaps a bridge to fully electric buses (ie substitute the engine for more batteries). 

The series hybrid drivetrain is pretty much a diesel engine, battery pack, electric motor at it's simplest form. The problem I foresee with the parallel concept is you're now looking at diesel engine, battery pack, electric motors and a transmission device. Therefore, it seems more complicated than either a straight diesel or series hybrid, not withstanding the learning curve of designing a series hybrid in the first place. The question at the end of the day, for any hybrid bus, is are the (alleged) cost savings actually worth the capital cost? Ask Saskatoon how hybrid Allison's have worked out since they've retired at least one bus due to battery failure and them not wanting to put out the cost for a replacement....

It seems to me that BAE has been gaining market share from Allison.

FWIW, my personal opionon is that the parellel hybrid, as employed by Allison, was a ploy to stay relevent in a changing industry. In retrospect, hybrids haven't taken off like they were promised they would, and as a result Allison still provides a large amount of conventional transmissions.

I'm quite curious what could have become of Allison's Es Series hybrid concept, although, I suspect it never had much of a chance once they got the Ep series on the market.

14 hours ago, MiWay0310 said:

Won't parallel systems require some sort of plug-in capability, since the diesel motor isn't acting as a generator?

No. You're overthinking this.

[Doppelkupplung]

15 hours ago, M. Parsons said:

I'm prepared to call bullshit on that. At higher speeds does the Allison Ep not operate in a strictly diesel mode, therefore, shifts like any other transmission, negating any benefits of a electric transmission? Certainly, at the lower end where the electic motor is in use for propulsion it's a bit smoother.

Apologies, I could have clarified more. That statement was based off me asking multiple GO Transit drivers on their driving experience regarding the D4500CTHs, the 3xxx units. I found all round compliments, saying they were smooth on the highway. Obviously everyone's experience may be different in some way, but this was generally what I found. Perhaps other agencies have the system programmed differently, like the BAE HDS. 

17 hours ago, M. Parsons said:

Anyone have a link to Voith's hybrid parallel products? I couldn't find one. Greatly appreciated.

Wasn't able to find much in terms of a product site, except for this report from Voith itself. The DIWAh was tested by BOGESTRA AG of Bochum in Germany exclusively on Solaris 18s. 

http://www.voith.com/ca-en/insights/urbanization/a-report-from-germany-23347.html

Also a report from Autoblog containing some information on the specs of the system:

https://www.autoblog.com/2011/03/30/meet-the-articulating-solaris-urbino-18-diwa-hybrid-city-bus/

Just as a side note, that thing made nearly 400hp with an electrically assisted ISB. (!!!!)

17 hours ago, M. Parsons said:

I get the series hybrid and think it's the best concept. and, indeed perhaps a bridge to fully electric buses (ie substitute the engine for more batteries). 

The series hybrid drivetrain is pretty much a diesel engine, battery pack, electric motor at it's simplest form. The problem I foresee with the parallel concept is you're now looking at diesel engine, battery pack, electric motors and a transmission device. Therefore, it seems more complicated than either a straight diesel or series hybrid, not withstanding the learning curve of designing a series hybrid in the first place.

Agreed; however, the parallel is a very attractive option for agencies who'd like to equip their buses that run higher speed trips/highway routes etc. I'm almost certain a BAE HDS will not have the best highway fuel economy when compared to an Ep4/5/60, let alone a six speed Allison. We aren't even talking about driver and passenger experience here either. 

And yes, agreed, the parallels are likely to be more complicated. 

17 hours ago, M. Parsons said:

The question at the end of the day, for any hybrid bus, is are the (alleged) cost savings actually worth the capital cost?

I know that in Altoona tests, the hybrids only seem to score marginally better than their diesel counter parts, disregarding traffic and other real world issues, I don't think there is a huge fuel benefit when compared to a newer diesel. And I know the mid-life battery replacement is quite costly. 

17 hours ago, M. Parsons said:

No. You're overthinking this.

Supercapacitors!

[M. Parsons]

34 minutes ago, MiWay0310 said:

Wasn't able to find much in terms of a product site, except for this report from Voith itself. The DIWAh was tested by BOGESTRA AG of Bochum in Germany exclusively on Solaris 18s. 

Agreed; however, the parallel is a very attractive option for agencies who'd like to equip their buses that run higher speed trips/highway routes etc. I'm almost certain a BAE HDS will not have the best highway fuel economy when compared to an Ep4/5/60, let alone a six speed Allison. We aren't even talking about driver and passenger experience here either. 

I know that in Altoona tests, the hybrids only seem to score marginally better than their diesel counter parts, disregarding traffic and other real world issues, I don't think there is a huge fuel benefit when compared to a newer diesel. And I know the mid-life battery replacement is quite costly. 

My point for asking about the Voith is the fact I couldn't find any current information either. I remember when they brought it out many years ago towards the end of the start of the hybrid hype (if that makes sense- they were late to the game in North America). Me thinks it might have already been discontinued. I don't think it made it into any North American buses, save for maybe a manufacture demo or two, but I don't even recall any of those off the top of my head.

Agreed that a parallel might be better in higher speed operation than a series, but, I think again this is where you really need to see what the actual cost advantages are of a hybrid over a diesel.

It seems to me with the parallel you save fuel at the lower speeds, using electric propulsion to help get the bus up to speed where the transmission transitions to full mechanical operation from electric and blended modes. There fore, at higher operating speeds you're not necessarily saving fuel vs. a straight diesel. Sure, you'll save some during starting/ stopping, but, with a operation like GO, there's going to be less starting/ stopping during which to make use of the hybrid component. Add to that, you're now lugging around batteries and electric motors, so, I'd hazard a guess that if you were to compare a diesel to a hybrid at highway crusing speed, that hybrid could have reduced fuel efficiency on account of the extra weight vs. a diesel.

Given King County Metro's operation (lots of highway runs as I recall), I'm curious how those BAE hybrids are doing vs the older fleet with Allison parallel drives and what sort of decision went into choosing BAE, and how things like fuel economy will play out in the long run. I think BAE is offering more innovative features than Allison, or at least that's the impression I get from viewing their websites. Granted, BAE's bus industry applications deal only with hybrid drives, while hybrids are a small faction for Allison, and therefore BAE is probably spending more time, effort, and R&D on hybrids than Allision is. That's pure speculation mind you. 

ETS's testing was perhaps one of the better sets of testing out there as they compared series, parallel, diesel, and trolley and buses they owned (and leased in the case of the trolley). The testing should have included 2 types of series hybrid (BAE and ISE), but, the ISE's kinda shit the bed (and have since been converted to diesel). As I recall, for the diesel options, the BAE series was the most efficient, but, not anywhere near manufacturer claims.

[Doppelkupplung]

9 minutes ago, M. Parsons said:

My point for asking about the Voith is the fact I couldn't find any current information either. I remember when they brought it out many years ago towards the end of the start of the hybrid hype (if that makes sense- they were late to the game in North America). Me thinks it might have already been discontinued. I don't think it made it into any North American buses, save for maybe a manufacture demo or two, but I don't even recall any of those off the top of my head.

Yeah, I don't think it got as popular as Voith had hoped....which is too bad since it seemed like a great idea. I'm quite sure it is discontinued, because I never heard of it after the testing in Bochum. And I don't think it ever made it here either, which is odd considering how popular the DIWA transmissions are in North America, let alone hybrids.

13 minutes ago, M. Parsons said:

Agreed that a parallel might be better in higher speed operation than a series, but, I think again this is where you really need to see what the actual cost advantages are of a hybrid over a diesel.

It seems to me with the parallel you save fuel at the lower speeds, using electric propulsion to help get the bus up to speed where the transmission transitions to full mechanical operation from electric and blended modes.

You're right about lower speeds. I bet the Ep series get the same, or very close fuel economy readings on the highway as the B4/500Rs in sixth. Especially with an active limiter. 

And since you bring up fuel savings at lower speeds, I'm surprised more operators didn't go with the Ep rather than the HDS, considering the fact that the HDS generally starts to rev up at a lower speed than than the Ep systems. But again, this also depends on how the HDS is programmed. 

17 minutes ago, M. Parsons said:

There fore, at higher operating speeds you're not necessarily saving fuel vs. a straight diesel. Sure, you'll save some during starting/ stopping, but, with a operation like GO, there's going to be less starting/ stopping during which to make use of the hybrid component. Add to that, you're now lugging around batteries and electric motors, so, I'd hazard a guess that if you were to compare a diesel to a hybrid at highway crusing speed, that hybrid could have reduced fuel efficiency on account of the extra weight vs. a diesel.

And I'm quite confident that's the reason why GO never ordered more CTHs.

19 minutes ago, M. Parsons said:

As I recall, for the diesel options, the BAE series was the most efficient, but, not anywhere near manufacturer claims.

Not anywhere near manufacturer claims, and also disappointingly close to their diesel competitors. 

[MAX BRT]

Past conversation about BAE vs. Allison EP is in this thread:
https://cptdb.ca/topic/13695-allison-ep-vs-bae-hybridrive/?page=3&tab=comments#comment-718337

 

[Doppelkupplung]

1 minute ago, MAX BRT said:

Past conversation about BAE vs. Allison EP is in this thread:

https://cptdb.ca/topic/13695-allison-ep-vs-bae-hybridrive/?page=3&tab=comments#comment-718337

 

Emphasis on what you said:

"The other thing that comes to mind is that the BAE gets better mileage--in the right stop-and-go conditions."

[MAX BRT]

Investigative article on US built BYD transit buses is in the Albuquerque Journal this morning. Its well done.

https://www.abqjournal.com/1122198/art-is-a-victim-of-the-new-bus-blues.html

It seems delays and workmanship problems are common with BYD.

For example, at ART in Albuquerque, only 9 of 20 articulated buses were delivered on time. 23 or 24 issues have been detected with each of them.

At Link Transit in Washington state, BYD buses ordered were almost a year late on delivery because of quality issues at the manufacturing plan. Those were 40 foot buses.

AVTA in Lancaster, CA was the launch customer for the 60 foot BYD--in service September 1, 2017 (Like Nova bus in Quebec, BYD is popular in Lancaster because their US factory is there)

(quote)Antelope Valley purchased two 40-foot electric buses from BYD in 2014 and followed up with an order of 13 60-foot buses in 2016.

Most problems with the latest order have been engineering related, along with some workmanship issues, Perry said.

“Technology of the buses, and their drive systems, works pretty well,” Perry said. “It’s always been, you know, the little stuff, door issues, or an air conditioner that was leaking and wasn’t properly sealed.” On one of the new 60-foot BYD buses, he said, a screw was in the wrong place.

“You’re going to get that with any manufacturer, but maybe we’ve gotten a little more with BYD,” Perry said.

“I know they try to work with us and things get fixed. For essentially a brand new company and as fast as they hit the floor running, maybe things could have been done a little differently. Maybe they could have spent a little more time with developing their new products, that’s really not for me to say,” Perry said.(unquote)

There was one customer (SunLine Transit in Thousand Palms, CA) who said they had no complaints and said their two leased buses held up wonderfully. But they also mentioned "growing pains."

There is no mention of the experience of St Albert or any other Canadian customer.

[Bus_Medic]

That was the meekest, most apologetic list of complaints I’ve ever seen...

If the defect causes a road call mid trip, or prevents or delays the vehicle from entering service, it’s not exactly “little”, now is it?

If there ‘s any video of the interview, I want to see if there’s a red scope dot at this guy’s left temple.

[Benton Harper]

Quick question, are the BYD plants union?  Thank you.

[Doppelkupplung]

Article posted above says that the XE60 has yet to go through "durability testing", i.e. Altoona, as does the BYD unit. 

1 hour ago, Benton Harper said:

Quick question, are the BYD plants union?  Thank you

I think so...http://sfvbj.com/news/2017/feb/06/byd-workers-choose-union-representation/

 

 

 

[Doppelkupplung]

Turin GTT is ordering 13 BYD 30 footers, with a claimed range of 150-200km. They will be built in China and delivered later in 2018, in the second half. 

https://www.just-auto.com/news/byd-supplies-13-electric-buses-to-four-italian-cities_id180852.aspx

I'm very curious to see Mercedes come out with their Citaro-E, because this is deep Mercedes territory. Norway (the other BYD order, out of Nobina) is still quite Scania and Volvo dominated. Its still in testing, both at their facility in Rovaniemi in Finland, and in Spain's Sierra Nevada mountains, hence the camouflage paper. Excited to see how it goes when it arrives later this year. They already have their first client lined up; RNV (Rhein-Neckar Verkehr) of the Heidelberg, Mannheim and Ludwigshafen region. This is also convenient for MB, since Mannheim is where the Citaro is produced, and the E bus will be tested in the metropolitan areas. 

http://mercedesblog.com/emission-free-through-the-city-mercedes-benz-citaro-with-all-electric-drive/

https://www.engadget.com/2017/11/13/mercedes-benz-citaro-electric-bus/

Better looking right off the bat. 

[Doppelkupplung]

The expansion for BYD is reaching everywhere now, with Egypt and India as customers: 

http://www.xinhuanet.com/english/2018-01/26/c_136925107.htm

15 buses for Alexandria, marking the first time e-buses would be operating in Egypt. 

http://www.livemint.com/Industry/XdiXNa38En3IGj7DS5jxFN/Chinese-electric-bus-makers-look-to-set-up-operations-in-Ind.html

BYD looking to potentially enter the Indian market. 

[MAX BRT]

(quote)Chinese-owned BYD announced Monday it will supply Catalina Island’s largest resort with three electric buses to ferry tourists around the island.

The Catalina Island Company, which owns most of the island’s developed land, will get three 23-foot electric buses to replace a small fleet of 1950s, diesel-powered buses. The BYD buses carry about 18-20 people and can travel 125 miles on a two-hour charge.

Because of its small size, the city of Avalon restricts the number of vehicles that be brought to the island. Less than 5 percent of the 400 vehicles on the island are electric, officials said.

The city also limits commercial vehicles; Avalon, the island’s only city, has only permitted just three in the last 12 years.

Most residents and tourists get around by golf cart, about 1,500 of which are in circulation.(unquote)

https://www.presstelegram.com/2018/01/29/catalina-island-company-gets-new-electric-buses-to-replace-1950s-diesel-fleet/

Read about Catalina island (lots of good photos!) on wikipedia:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Santa_Catalina_Island_(California)

[WMATAC40LF]

8 hours ago, MAX BRT said:

The Catalina Island Company, which owns most of the island’s developed land, will get three 23-foot electric buses to replace a small fleet of 1950s, diesel-powered buses. The BYD buses carry about 18-20 people and can travel 125 miles on a two-hour charge.

Just looked them up. IMO its unfortunate that they're replacing beautiful 50s era Flxibles with this BYD junk. 

Do any other agencies own (or have on order) this 23 foot model? 

[Bus_Medic]

A google search of “Catalina island bus” brings up an interesting ménagerie of vehicles. It would appear that these aren’t the first battery buses they’ve had.

[MAX BRT]

On 2/2/2018 at 12:15 AM, WMATAC40LF said:

Just looked them up. IMO its unfortunate that they're replacing beautiful 50s era Flxibles with this BYD junk. 

Do any other agencies own (or have on order) this 23 foot model? 

Good question. I didn't realize its actually a coach bus.

http://www.metro-magazine.com/sustainability/product/411053/23-ft-battery-electric-bus

[Doppelkupplung]

A 23 footer coach? Wouldn't that be a first for North America? 

[Chinese Daniel]

Like the middle size bus.